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Author Topic: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers  (Read 1136 times)

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Deviouz1Topic starter

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nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« on: November 09, 2008, 11:23:42 AM »

first of all it has been my stance that it is our policies in the middle east over the years that has focused islamic fundamentalist hatred upon america. this may or may not be correct and as such i am interested in other opinions on the subject. i am also of the opinion that if our policies werent what they are that the "terrorist threat" from the middle east would be mitigated if not entirely reversed. can anyone explain to me why we are spending such a monstrous amount of money trying to prevent something as insidious as terrorist attacks that are nearly impossible to predict or prepare for? it seems to me that while the attacks on WTC were in fact a massive loss of life and a travesty, we have spent an ungodly amount of money to prevent something like it from happening again when in my opinion we could save a much larger number of lives by diverting those monies into other ways of saving a larger number of lives. for example in the year 2000,

The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435 000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400 000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85 000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75 000), toxic agents (55 000), motor vehicle crashes (43 000), incidents involving firearms (29 000), sexual behaviors (20 000), and illicit use of drugs (17 000).


which quite simply DWARFS the deaths via terrorism/war.

another question is, what are the pros and cons of Obamas policies regarding nuclear proliferation? i know about the Lugar-Obama nonproliferation initiative, and the Obama-Hagel Provision, to a degree, but ive run across several people who are so terrified of terrorists with nukes that they seem to me to be quivering in their petticoats due to the current administrations scare tactics. how valid are those fears?
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THE BRA1N

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2008, 04:53:11 PM »

Man, Ive done at least two threads about a similar topic with regards to the over-reaction and over-spending in the war in Iraq after 9-11 but it really applies to defense spending and government spending overall. Add diseases to that list and compare the spending to combat deaths from that versus the spending for war to find phantom weapons of mass destruction and you have to be a complete idiot not to see that our national priorities are all messed up.
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RizenPhoeniz

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2008, 06:13:52 PM »

I say pull all troops back to US boarders, Use Naval/Air power to protect international shipping/flight paths.

Then just make it real clear, Use a nuke or allow a terrorist organization to plan and execute an attack on the US and your country will not exist in half an hour.

It worked during the cold war.
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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 09:38:18 AM »

In the 80's i used to debate politics with many people, it used to concern the cold war with one exception. Everyone that I met who had lived and worked in the middle east siad the next war would be with the arabs. They saw something that I had missed but I'mm a bit galled to think people still think its all post wTC/ Bushes fault.

Islam like all religions fosters the idea that they are the one true way, more so as it claims superiority of beleivers over "infedels". This leads to the question if islam is so wonderful how come Islamic countries are so shit compared to the west? Obviously its not their fault as they are "Superior" so it must be someone elses fault. This feeds occidentalism that weaves in with western leftwing self-hatred.

There is overwhelming evidence that this has played apart in feulling exstremism since the muslim brotherhood in Eygpt in the 1950's. All muslim countries have tried to ignore it or shift the problem, like Saudi Arabia that sent it jihadis/fundementalists to Afghanistan to fight the soviets. Most are begging to deal with iy now, if for no other reason than their own governments are targets.

Iraq was a fuck up, iys mainly Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran that are the problems.

Now I'll put a very disturbing question to you. For all bushes fuck-ups and bumbling what if thats as good as it gets? What if alternative policies turn out to be worse?

Your argument seems to hinge on that their was no problem pre-bush, what if you are wrong?
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Deviouz1Topic starter

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2008, 01:14:18 PM »

hrm... i guess i shoulda went a different way with this. really the first paragraph was just thrown off by my reference to money. i didnt intend to shift the focus there. i was more concerned with the deaths themselves not the money spend to prevent them although that is actually how it came out. my apologies BRA1N. =/

anyway, the intended main question i had was regarding obamas nuclear policies, if there are more that i dont know about, and whether or not they should be effective.

Quote from: Rizen
I say pull all troops back to US boarders, Use Naval/Air power to protect international shipping/flight paths.

Then just make it real clear, Use a nuke or allow a terrorist organization to plan and execute an attack on the US and your country will not exist in half an hour.

It worked during the cold war.

only problem is a point was made to me that did imho have some validity to it. terrorists dont always have a return address as it were. it worked in the cold war because there werent as many nukes around or the materials to make them. pretty much if we were attacked with nukes we would know where they came from. in this case however that simply isnt true. especially if, somehow, some fucker smuggles some kind of mininuke like a suitcase sized dirty bomb in and detonates it within our borders. you cant really nuke anyone in retaliation cause you probably wont know who actually did it. which is why the nuclear proliferation shit is such a problem.

In the 80's i used to debate politics with many people, it used to concern the cold war with one exception. Everyone that I met who had lived and worked in the middle east siad the next war would be with the arabs. They saw something that I had missed but I'mm a bit galled to think people still think its all post wTC/ Bushes fault.

Islam like all religions fosters the idea that they are the one true way, more so as it claims superiority of beleivers over "infedels". This leads to the question if islam is so wonderful how come Islamic countries are so shit compared to the west? Obviously its not their fault as they are "Superior" so it must be someone elses fault. This feeds occidentalism that weaves in with western leftwing self-hatred.

There is overwhelming evidence that this has played apart in feulling exstremism since the muslim brotherhood in Eygpt in the 1950's. All muslim countries have tried to ignore it or shift the problem, like Saudi Arabia that sent it jihadis/fundementalists to Afghanistan to fight the soviets. Most are begging to deal with iy now, if for no other reason than their own governments are targets.

Iraq was a fuck up, iys mainly Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran that are the problems.

Now I'll put a very disturbing question to you. For all bushes fuck-ups and bumbling what if thats as good as it gets? What if alternative policies turn out to be worse?

Your argument seems to hinge on that their was no problem pre-bush, what if you are wrong?

honestly i think you have mistaken my stance which is probably my fault as i didnt clarify. do i think this is all bushes fault? no. not at all actually. i DO think he and his father made things a lot worse but the problem doesnt stem from them. they just compounded it. i think the problem stems from the fact that "we" kicked the muslims out of present day israel at the end of WW2. i think the problem is really a religious based one and that to be honest most issues with foreign policy that incite warlike responses are religious based. i think this is and always has been a holy war. in reality our entire middle eastern policy is a holy war and that every other reason ever given has been nothing but a facade to hide the fact that its a holy war which is why i have, for my entire life whether i knew it or not, had such a problem with religion being such a large part of politics. it disgusts me and imo goes against everything this country was based on. there should be absolutely NO references to religion in any political facet.

there are those who have told me "but the founding fathers were all christian, of course they meant for religion to play a part in politics." to which i usually respond with quotes from them.

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -- Ben Franklin

"The establishment of the innocent and genuine character of this benevolent moralist, and the rescuing it from the imputation of imposture, which has resulted from [misconstructions of his words by his pretended votaries] artificial systems*, invented by Ultra-Christian sects, unauthorised by a single word ever uttered by him is a most desirable object, and one to which Priestly has successfully devoted his labors and learning, it would in times it is to be hoped effect a quiet euthanasia of the heretics of bigotry and fanaticism which have so long triumphed over human reason and so generally & deeply afflicted mankind.

I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." -- Thomas Jefferson

etc.
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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2008, 04:10:36 PM »

OK I get what your saying and generally agree. Although it was jews that created israel and the west reluctantly went along with it after their war of independance. I knew an old boy who served in Palastine during WW2 and he said that the Arabs used to say to him that once the british go they will kill all the jews. It was the only British mandated terrortory that was not self-policing because they couldn't be trusted to treat each other decently.

Have to say organised religion is one of the few things that gets my hackles up.
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RizenPhoeniz

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 01:04:49 PM »


only problem is a point was made to me that did imho have some validity to it. terrorists dont always have a return address as it were.

I can't think of a single case where we either didn't know or figure out where the group executing the attack was from. Thats why I said, "allow a group from your country to". I think if leaders know that if they don't get a hold on their wackos it might just cost them the existance of their country they might just be motivated to keep their countries shit straight.
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Deviouz1Topic starter

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 02:19:48 PM »

I can't think of a single case where we either didn't know or figure out where the group executing the attack was from. Thats why I said, "allow a group from your country to". I think if leaders know that if they don't get a hold on their wackos it might just cost them the existance of their country they might just be motivated to keep their countries shit straight.

thats because there has always been physical evidence of some sort to look at. but in the case of a "dirty bomb" what evidence would be left behind? a giant hole in the ground?
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RizenPhoeniz

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2008, 05:17:40 PM »

thats because there has always been physical evidence of some sort to look at. but in the case of a "dirty bomb" what evidence would be left behind? a giant hole in the ground?

Our government knew in a very short amount of time after the attacks who carried out 9/11 based on communication intercepts. Evidence at the scene of the crime isn't needed.
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Deviouz1Topic starter

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2008, 07:40:07 PM »

ok lets back up for just a second.

Quote
I can't think of a single case where we either didn't know or figure out where the group executing the attack was from.

the VERY few attacks that have ever been made on american soil simply cannot be pointed to as plausible reason to doubt the idea that an attack could be carried out without the govt knowing exactly who it was.

basically what youre saying is that there is no possible way anyone could ever attack us without the govt knowing who it was. im sorry but imo that seems a bit naive. if the govt were omniscient then i guess you would have an argument, of course if that were true then there wouldnt be any criminals running around in our cities and no attack could ever have been successful not to mention we'd have osama in a noose by now and the governmental disaster that was Katrina would have been avoided entirely.

i think you give them too much credit. besides, the idea is to prevent an attack ion the first place, not prevent via retaliation.
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RizenPhoeniz

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2008, 07:54:39 PM »

We have always been good at piecing it together after the fact, it's not hard to follow the bread crumbs from near the event back to those that planned it. That's how millions of crimes get solved everyday.

Now I'm not saying that we can know 100% of them time, there is always the possibility of one individual with the know how and access to pull off something. The anthrax scare comes to mind. There is know way we'd ever catch that individual no matter what we do.

However, any group the size of what pulled off 9/11 would leave a sufficient electronic/communication trail we could figure it out.

Another point, we don't even need the ability to solve every possibility, crime is deterred by the fact that a vast majority of major crimes are solved. Same would go for allowing a terrorist cell to execute an attack on the US knowing if the trail is found to lead back to your country, poof, you don't exist. So what if there is a 2% or even 10% percent chance they won't be discovered? Even most bat shit crazy leaders won't risk their peoples annihilation if their is a 90% chance it will happen.
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Deviouz1Topic starter

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Re: nuclear proliferation / terrorist dangers
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 10:06:38 AM »

i think youre forgetting the fact that were dealing with "bat shit crazy" fanatical islamics who believe that if they die while killing the infidels that theyll be rewarded in the afterlife. they dont give a shit about dying, thats proven everytime a suicide bomber goes to work. we arent dealing with russians who, for all their craziness, arent fundamentalist yokels with a deathwish. the "enemy" WANTS their 80 virgins and would LOVE the opportunity to earn them. repurcussions dont matter to them, they consider their deaths the path to immortality and a way to make allah happy.
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