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Author Topic: Should congress "bail out" the big three?  (Read 6513 times)

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princess of ptTopic starter

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Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« on: November 13, 2008, 01:06:40 AM »

This is quickly becoming a gigantic nightmare. If the government would have taken that 700 +BILLION dollars and divvied it out amongst the people, the economy would have been jump started so fucking fast it would have needed a new flywheel. I'm really starting to lust after Hank Paulson's balls on the end of a fucking skewer right about now.

Should GM, Ford, and Chrysler be bailed out considering the potential job loss that would occur if they aren't and the fact that they already were doled 25 biilion earlier this year and another bail out may possibly be just another temporary bandaid...

Congress Eyes Auto Bailout

House Democrats led by Barney Frank want to push through an auto company relief plan next week that would provide $25 billion in loans from the $700 billion bailout bill. Treasury Secretary Paulson objects and some House Republicans agree.



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96922219

more; http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96756693


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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2008, 01:17:29 AM »

i think im going to vomit. next thing you know microsoft, dell, and cisco are going to be clamoring to jump on board and dig their grubby fingers into the mix. im beginning to wonder whether or not obama is going to have a country to lead by the time he takes office. =/
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princess of ptTopic starter

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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2008, 06:38:53 AM »

the good news is they've "found" some sort of loophole slick willy implemented in 96 that says anything bush or any other lame duck does in the last 6 months(as opposed to the common belief that only the last 6 weeks can be vetoed) of office can be overturned by the incoming POTUS.

whew.
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 06:47:24 AM »

They should get a bailout with the same stips Lee Iacocca got back in '79 when the gov't rescued Chrysler....loans with a gov't backed guarantee.  Iacocca also had to deliver a business plan for turning around the company to Congress.

Btw, Iacocca managed to pay back the loans 7 years ahead of time and the gov't made a profit...BOOYAH!
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 07:16:12 AM »

The government should demand the boards removal if they are that far up shit creek. Like Brown has done to the UK banks, mind you its about the only thing right he has done and he will be getting the sack at the next election.
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2008, 07:38:16 AM »

Like Brown has done to the UK banks, mind you its about the only thing right he has done and he will be getting the sack at the next election.

Brown ain't too bad. I think the guy latched on to the shitty end of the stick in a lot of ways.

You're right that he's for the chop though, and then we get years of Tory rule again........ oh joy  :sad:
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 12:00:52 PM »

My gut reaction is like Torch's - give them loans secured by their assets and supported by business plans of how they are going to cut the expenses and losses that put them in this position to begin with but Im also tempted to say, fuck them, dont give them anything.

This is the unenlightened, unregulated capitalism that shitheads like McCain think has no flaws. Their workers will go on strike unless they get paid $40 an hour? Well now is time to pay the piper. Either slash the work force in half or find another way to cut their expenses.

The auto industry isnt as critical to the country as the airlines are and they are in much worse shape. We NEED national airlines and a banking system but we can do without automakers just fine. We'll just all be driving foreign cars which means we'll be getting better gas mileage.

The thousands of people who lose their jobs can think twice about it the next time they threaten to go on strike unless the company caves in to their salary and benefits demands and they can sing church hymns about not wanting to live in a socialist country while they collect their unemployment checks.




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princess of ptTopic starter

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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 12:21:23 PM »

The thousands of people who lose their jobs can think twice about it the next time they threaten to go on strike unless the company caves in to their salary and benefits demands and they can sing church hymns about not wanting to live in a socialist country while they collect their unemployment checks.

I initially thought the same way as you did, however I got to thinking, GM is Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac, etc.; Chrysler is also Lincoln, Mercury, etc. and Ford is Ford and whatever other underlings they've managed to swallow that I'm not currently aware of.
The problem with letting them sink is more than "thousands" would lose their jobs. The estimate is about 3.5 MILLION and I believe that is a gross under estimate. Think about all of the automobile dealerships and the parts stores like Auto Zone etc. All those people who sell cars, all those people who are certified to repair them, and all those places that sell the parts for those cars will be SEVERLY impacted. I think the magnitude of all three AMERICAN car companies going under would REALLY fuck our economy. First our banks and now our BIGGEST industry? What is left? Cows and chickens.
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 12:50:30 PM »

The auto industry isnt as critical to the country as the airlines are and they are in much worse shape. We NEED national airlines and a banking system but we can do without automakers just fine. We'll just all be driving foreign cars which means we'll be getting better gas mileage.

There are plenty of US autos that get good gas mileage, Americans don't buy American economy cars despite the fact that they are every bit as good as foreign imports. I drive a Ford Escape Hybrid that has all the auto goodies(power sunroof, power everything, leather, etc.) and gets 30+ mpg in both city and highway driving. It is by far the best auto I've ever owned.

The problem with the loss of the big 3 would be that we lose more of our already shrinking manufacturing base and slip further into being a service economy, worsening our trade deficit and speeding up the money transfer from the US to the rest of the world.

In my view it's also a national security issue. It war time the auto makers have in the past converted to producing supplies and vehicles needed by the military. In major wars, it's often a countries ability churn out war supplies that eventually determine the winner of the war.

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princess of ptTopic starter

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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 12:58:54 PM »

Wow, yes. I hadn't thought of that aspect of it either.  :confused: Fuck we're in some deep shit.
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 02:02:14 PM »

I initially thought the same way as you did, however I got to thinking, GM is Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac, etc.; Chrysler is also Lincoln, Mercury, etc. and Ford is Ford and whatever other underlings they've managed to swallow that I'm not currently aware of.
The problem with letting them sink is more than "thousands" would lose their jobs. The estimate is about 3.5 MILLION and I believe that is a gross under estimate.

I dont know where they got that inflated number from. GM is the biggest employer of the three and they employ about 250,000 workers. But let's be realistic, these companies aren't going to disappear off the map if Congress doesnt bail them out. At worst, they will file for bankruptcy protection like Circuit City did a few days ago and have a bankruptcy trustee slash their debts while they continue to operate as a going concern.

Part of what Im saying is that the reason they are in this position to begin with is NOT because of the current economic situation but because of MANY shortsighted business decisions which led to this and which is the pillar of economic darwinism and capitalism that the Republicans were so in tune with during the election - the strong companies survive and the weak get tossed aside.

Take a look at GM's annual report and you can see how many billions of dollars they have to pay for post retirement benefits after the last UAW collective bargaining agreement. See how many hundreds of millions of dollars their executives got in stock options. How many tens of billions of dollars they have to spend on healthcare alone for their employess.

Toyota, Honda and Nissan all made gains into the market while the big three either held their own or lost market share in the past year. Im not in favor of corporate welfare when their own decisions are mostly to blame for the situation they are in and we can do fine without them.

Like I said, if their union leaders and executives wouldnt have agreed to the collective bargaining agreements that added over 100 billion to their costs and have managed their expenses much more wisely, they wouldnt be asking for handouts right now. It's like the football player who gets the 10 million dollar salary for a couple of MVP years until he loses a step and then becomes a salary burden and gets cut (cough*ShaunAlexander*cough). Had he settled for 4 or 5 million, he might had never been cut. Had the unions settled for a lower but still reasonable wage and benefits, their employee members wouldnt have to worry about losing their jobs right now.

If they need to consolidate and cut jobs to survive, then so be it. But to think that they can get away with their inflated union bargained salaries and benefits and bad business decisions and just come to the taxpayers to ask us to bail them out? I dont think so. The economic system isn't going to collapse like it would for the banks if they have to file for Chapter 11. The more I think about this corporate bailout, the more rotten it sounds to me. I dont see Toyota or Honda asking the government of Japan to bail them out.



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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2008, 02:27:58 PM »


The problem with the loss of the big 3 would be that we lose more of our already shrinking manufacturing base and slip further into being a service economy, worsening our trade deficit and speeding up the money transfer from the US to the rest of the world.


this is complete rubbish and as economicly illiterate as you get. Manufacturing is just following the cycle of Agriculture, falling emploment, rising productivity.

What is important is the growth in productivity which means you make more for a GIVEN PERIOD and the value added. That is the margin on top of total costs which you sell for.

Manufacuturing is a dead sector, employment grow will and is comming from Services, also Biotechnology and a few others. Manufacturing has been on the slide in all developed countries since the 1960's 70's. In the UK manufacturing employment peaked in 1966 and has been on a decline ever since. Some jobs are exported if they are labour intensive but most are turned into jobs that are done by robots, automation.

It wont totally vanish, agriculture hasn't, but it will bottom out at some point. This decline in manufacturing employment has coincided with rising living standards as service sector productivity rocketed with the introduction of computer technology. So fast that it bankrupted Argentina when they linked their currency to the dollar, but with a more manufacturing based economy they couldn,t keep productivity gains in line with other countries therefor their currency became well overvalued and goods way over priced.

As for converting for military use again you are dealing with the high tec sector of the economy as when the tank made trench warfare virtually obsolete , air and missile power has turned ground forces into a mopping up operation.
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2008, 02:52:16 PM »

Yeah, Im not buying the national security deal either. That's a red herring. First of all, they hardly make anything for the military to begin with. Almost everything nowadays is made by contractors like General Dynamics and Raytheon which bought out Chrysler's military subsidiaries many years ago.

Second, there are more than enough viable companies and military contractors like one in particular whose name begins with Hal and rhymes with Burton who are raking in hundreds of billions of dollars since 2001 and no doubt would be salivating at the prospect of adding a military vehicles divsion to their dozens of subsidiaries.

Third, as I said before they arent going disappear if they dont get their welfare loans. They will still be around in one form or another to reap the benefits of a no-bid military contract should one come their way.


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princess of ptTopic starter

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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2008, 03:01:14 PM »

I dont know where they got that inflated number from. GM is the biggest employer of the three and they employ about 250,000 workers. But let's be realistic, these companies aren't going to disappear off the map if Congress doesnt bail them out. At worst, they will file for bankruptcy protection like Circuit City did a few days ago and have a bankruptcy trustee slash their debts while they continue to operate as a going concern.

I'm talking about the bigger picture, kind of like the "trickle down" effect. Already, there are dealerships closing and selling off American franchises. It's happening around here in big numbers.
Closing or regrouping finances will not only affect the direct employees of Detroit, but think about the numbers of dealerships across the nation that will be affected.
There has to be at least 25-40k dealerships nation wide that retail and service American made automobiles. The estimate of people who would be impacted is about 3.5 MILLION.

Part of what Im saying is that the reason they are in this position to begin with is NOT because of the current economic situation but because of MANY shortsighted business decisions which led to this and which is the pillar of economic darwinism and capitalism that the Republicans were so in tune with during the election - the strong companies survive and the weak get tossed aside.

I think the picture is A LOT bigger than we think. A few weeks back I caught the tail end of an expose' on 60 Minutes. It was an interview with the CEO of GM and it touched on how GM and Ford were both in competition to produce fuel efficient/green/electric vehicles, a few years back. They were successful, however there was conflict with government and thousands and thousands of the vehicles manufactured were recalled before they were made public and then destroyed. I'd have to do more research on exactly why, but I can guarantee you it is probably something very similar as to why our defense contracts are going to big huge monopolized companies that have big government sitting on their boards as well as the sale of fuel. I bet you it's very deep, dark, and twisted and in step with the outrageous sodomization we've been experiencing over the past eight years.  :sad:

Take a look at GM's annual report and you can see how many billions of dollars they have to pay for post retirement benefits after the last UAW collective bargaining agreement. See how many hundreds of millions of dollars their executives got in stock options. How many tens of billions of dollars they have to spend on healthcare alone for their employess.

Toyota, Honda and Nissan all made gains into the market while the big three either held their own or lost market share in the past year. Im not in favor of corporate welfare when their own decisions are mostly to blame for the situation they are in and we can do fine without them.

Like I said, if their union leaders and executives wouldnt have agreed to the collective bargaining agreements that added over 100 billion to their costs and have managed their expenses much more wisely, they wouldnt be asking for handouts right now. It's like the football player who gets the 10 million dollar salary for a couple of MVP years until he loses a step and then becomes a salary burden and gets cut (cough*ShaunAlexander*cough). Had he settled for 4 or 5 million, he might had never been cut. Had the unions settled for a lower but still reasonable wage and benefits, their employee members wouldnt have to worry about losing their jobs right now.

If they need to consolidate and cut jobs to survive, then so be it. But to think that they can get away with their inflated union bargained salaries and benefits and bad business decisions and just come to the taxpayers to ask us to bail them out? I dont think so. The economic system isn't going to collapse like it would for the banks if they have to file for Chapter 11. The more I think about this corporate bailout, the more rotten it sounds to me. I dont see Toyota or Honda asking the government of Japan to bail them out.

I have to go get M, I'll respond to this more in a little bit.  :vc:
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THE BRA1N

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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2008, 03:14:05 PM »

I'm talking about the bigger picture, kind of like the "trickle down" effect. Already, there are dealerships closing and selling off American franchises. It's happening around here in big numbers.
Closing or regrouping finances will not only affect the direct employees of Detroit, but think about the numbers of dealerships across the nation that will be affected.
There has to be at least 25-40k dealerships nation wide that retail and service American made automobiles. The estimate of people who would be impacted is about 3.5 MILLION.


Yeah well the horse and buggy dealerships of 1900's had to adapt too if they wanted to stay in business. Sell Toyota or better yet look into the market for selling alternate fuel vehicles before everyone else jumps on the bandwagon.

The fools that stay on the sinking ship hoping that someone else will help them patch up the holes deserve their fate.

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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2008, 03:15:10 PM »

Oh I'm wetting myself in anticiation of your return. Give it up, Brain knows his eggs. Dont know what prefession he is in but your not dealing with a couple of hospital orderlies here sweetpea.

btw
Posted your new avatar in the grill brain thread. :rotf:
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2008, 03:18:29 PM »

I'm a bus driver.
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2008, 03:25:00 PM »

seriously? how much of your frontal lobe did they remove for you to qualify?
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 03:41:13 PM »

seriously? how much of your frontal lobe did they remove for you to qualify?

I cant remember.
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Re: Should congress "bail out" the big three?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2008, 03:48:02 PM »

Yeah well the horse and buggy dealerships of 1900's had to adapt too if they wanted to stay in business. Sell Toyota or better yet look into the market for selling alternate fuel vehicles before everyone else jumps on the bandwagon.

The fools that stay on the sinking ship hoping that someone else will help them patch up the holes deserve their fate.


I agree to an extent, but there is still a great deal of the population that would be affected. I think there should be governmental mandates surrounding a "loan" or a bail out that extrapolates the manufacturing of vehicles that are beneficial to both our "environment" and our economic interest fuel wise.

Here is a tidbit on GM's electric car, manufactured and realeased more or less as a demo in the late 90's, I know Ford also had their own electric car at about the same time. I doubt I'll find the exact reasons for why they were pulled off the market and find it quite curious how fuel costs reached an all time high, the market is bottoming out, and the auto industry is shitting the bed in light of the technology being out there for cars that don't need to be reliant on gasoline to run...

The EV1 was the first modern production electric vehicle from a major automaker and also the first purpose-built electric car produced by General Motors (GM) in the United States.

Introduced in 1996, The EV1 electric cars were available in California and Arizona as a lease only, as well as through a Southern Company employee lease program in Georgia, and could be serviced at designated Saturn retailers. They were discontinued after 1999 and subsequently removed from the roads in 2003 by General Motors (except for a few). The car's discontinuation was and remains a controversial topic.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
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