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Author Topic: Afghanistan, is the US Government just painting us into a corner there as well?  (Read 1887 times)

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princess of ptTopic starter

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With all the talks about finally getting our troops out of Iraq and sending more troops into Afghanistan to fight the Taliban, I can only wonder if us being there will be any more effective.

Will this not stir up even more violence? Are we ultimately setting ourselves up for another Viet Nam? Is there even a clear cut strategy for fighting in Afghanistan?

Afghanistan's topography alone has proved a detriment to any sort of successful surge and can only put our soldiers in a position to be under constant attack, especially when you consider this being the case they're already experiencing with getting supplies in.

Can we really afford to stay there fighting for years and years and how can we possibly "win" when those animals have shown to have unlimited resources and no desire to give up?

I say it is a lose lose situation. Afghanistan will only return to its ways as soon as we leave there and we should get the fuck out and stop wasting so much of the fucking money we don't have to waste.
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Remember when I talked about the mainstream media not covering a thing about the TWO WARS that we are involved in other than giving body counts? How most of America is kept in the complete dark about what we are actually doing in Iraq?

This past weekend I watched Explorer on Nat Geo about Afghanistan. It was a documentary where a Nat Geo crew got special permission to cover the daily exploits of an undersized group of Green Berets in a remote region of Afghanistan for 10 days.

It was sobering. First of all, we arent doing jack shit over there that is constructive. I doubt we're even looking for bin Ladin. All these people do every day is go out and hunt for Taliban while avoid getting killed. They also give out candy to kids and have medical people examine the local villagers to try and ameliorate the memory of having their village accidentally destroyed by US bombs a few months ago.

It reminded me of the exact same thing I mentioned about Iraq. If we arent going to go after those who are directly responsible for 9-11, why the fuck are we even there? The Taliban sure werent the ones who attacked us. Those backward ass subhumans probably dont even know what an airplane is.

The entire operation boils down to pissing away time and money there in a never ending mission to capture or kill Taliban. Imagine an invading Muslim army here in the US hunting down Baptists who oppose their invasion and plot to eradicate them and you can see how this can go on for hundreds of years. Instead of abortion clinics, they would be plotting against and bombing the invading occupiers, wouldnt they?

The sad but real life ending to the episode was that an IED went off during one of these mission to look for Taliban among the villagers and killed a couple of Nat Geo camera guys plus some soldiers.

People who buy into propaganda and cant think for themselves will justify it by saying they died to protect our freedoms and liberty but that is the biggest bunch of crap that anyone can tell you to justify a war. They weren't protecting shit. Our freedoms and liberties were NEVER under attack by Iraq or the Taliban. They died carrying out the mission and orders of idiotic politicians, bureaucrats and ideologues who think nothing of war except when they or their sons have to serve in it. There's no reason for them to keep dying in stupid suicide missions like this.
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No there really is no good reason for war to begin with, unless our safety is being legitimately and directly compromised, is there? This always makes me think of privatized defense and exactly who is benefiting from all the death and destruction. It is really the root of both of these wars in particular, in my opinion.

What is truly upsetting and mind boggling about this entire situation is the fact that with current technologies, more and more people are or should be aware and capable of understanding the magnitude of these unbelievable circumstances our elected officials are getting us into and yet nothing is actually changing and nobody seems interested in taking any sort of initiative to be aware, even though any given news source or blog you search is riddled with these over articulate salvo's describing what is wrong and how it should be fixed and still nothing is actually getting done or being said to actively make the situation better.

It is rather amazing that there is such a massive portion of the population out there just happy to go about their business and remain oblivious, while the rest just sit behind a monitor and watch it all unfold and bitch about it.

I wonder if the soldiers are even aware of how pointless Afghanistan truly is for us and how the men in charge of them can not be? From everything I've read, seen, and heard, the Taliban occupies about 72% of Afghanistan and has an even greater stronghold on the tribal communities than al Quaeda had in Iraq. How could we possibly rely on the local population over there to fight when they're all on the opposing side to begin with?? What would the end result be if we just pulled out and turned a blind eye and let Russia and India "handle" it? I really hope these are issues being seriously weighed by the Obama administration.



   
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A more fundamental question which should be asked is why are we at war with the Taliban to begin with? They provided sanctuary to al qaueda and wouldnt turn over bin Ladin, okay but that was 2001. We overturned their government, killed tens of thousands of them and bin Laden isn't even in Afghanistan any longer. So why the hell do we continue to war against them?

Because we dont like the way they treat women or their people? That's THEIR problem. Who the fuck is Bush to go sticking our country's army into every world regime that denies human rights to its people? More than half the world does that! That has NOTHING to do with protecting our freedoms like I hear as a matter of routine whenever someone mentions 'our troops'. What a fucked up world we live in.
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George W. Bush's motives for ANYTHING that he does are strictly financial, and we are only interested in Afghanistan for that reason. If the United States of America really gave a flying fuck about human rights, the abuse of women, starving children, worldwide famine, or any of the other reasons Bush keeps putting out there for furthering the violence and upping the death toll, we would have been in South Africa, Northern Ireland and any other number of places for decades and decades. But those places have no oil, so fuck the child soldiers, the murdered Irish on both sides of the religious fence, as well as the English killed by IRA bombs, the diamond miners....

We don't belong in Afghanistan any more than we belonged in Iraq. Or Viet Nam for that matter. Or Korea. Or....

I think you see where I'm going here.
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Really, it is fucked up beyond belief! but we knew that already.  :vc:

I recently watched an expose on the opium industry in Afghanistan. It went into great detail over how they produce 90% of the worlds opium supply and how this wasn't always the case under Taliban rule and since our occupation there in 2001, the production and trade has grown tremendously and is a huge part of the Taliban's war budget and fueling its insurgency.

I had read about this before but never put much thought into it. Just now after reading about it some more, I came across an article stating that 5,000 of our troops are being sent to Afghanistan's Helmand province to help out besieged British troops and that we plan to send in about 30,000 more troops, doubling the number of soldiers already there, at the start of the year.

It would seem to me that we're also fighting another fucking war on drugs, on top of trying to spread our idea's of democracy. grr!



   
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The reason they grow poppy is because that's the only cash crop they can grow there and make money from to feed their families. They probably dont even know what opium is. Regardless, that doesnt give the any country the right to invade and occupy another country and kill off a segment of their population.

If the US really wants to make a dent then they can use the money we spend in the war for just one year and directly give it to the villagers to not grow opium. The hundreds of billions of dollars would be enough to sustain every family in that forsaken country for years to come. Otherwise, find a way or an alternative for those people to make a living that doesnt involve growing poppy plants instead of just bombing or burning down their homes and land.

We cant control drug consumption in this country so that gives us a right to occupy another country that grows a drug crop? Some people in power really have their head up their ass.

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Which is why we should legalize the drugs and tax the fuck out of them. Addiction is an illness, but drug dealing is a business and so is recovery.

And I know what I'm talking about. Ask Bushpig. ::)
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The reason they grow poppy is because that's the only cash crop they can grow there and make money from to feed their families. They probably dont even know what opium is. Regardless, that doesnt give the any country the right to invade and occupy another country and kill off a segment of their population.

If the US really wants to make a dent then they can use the money we spend in the war for just one year and directly give it to the villagers to not grow opium. The hundreds of billions of dollars would be enough to sustain every family in that forsaken country for years to come. Otherwise, find a way or an alternative for those people to make a living that doesnt involve growing poppy plants instead of just bombing or burning down their homes and land.

We cant control drug consumption in this country so that gives us a right to occupy another country that grows a drug crop? Some people in power really have their head up their ass.


Wow...this Afghanistan bullshit boils down to a United Nations deal too.  ::)
I personally thought we were there to ensure Afghanistan wasn't being used as a safe haven for international terrorists and we were foolishly making an example of those who provide support for or harbor terrorists. I had no idea this was also part of why we have our noses in their business. Doh!

UNODC Initiatives

The Paris Pact Initiative
A partnership of more than 50 countries and international organizations, the Paris Pact Initiative is aimed at combating Afghan opiates trafficking, consumption and related problems in the affected priority countries, specifically focused on counter narcotics enforcement and demand reduction issues along the Afghan opiates trafficking routes to Europe.


On a lighter note, that pertains to the US and "winning wars"; I was just watching Carlin's last show while eating dinner (gosh i really miss that bastard) and though biblically based, he offered a great proverb-

Pride goeth before the fall
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Which is why we should legalize the drugs and tax the fuck out of them. Addiction is an illness, but drug dealing is a business and so is recovery.

And I know what I'm talking about. Ask Bushpig. ::)

I agree that drug dealing is a business and an extremely profitable one at that. I also believe addiction is a form of illness. But I'm not certain about legalizing all drugs. Where marijuana has been shown to actually remedy certain side effects to illness, I think it would be effective if legalized, but I'm not sure about coke, meth, and heroin. They've all been proved extremely addictive and their detriment to society outweighs any sort of tax benefit and would only escalate healthcare costs, in my opinion.

Both coke and heroin can be almost eradicated if we really wanted to eliminate them off the face of the earth, which is what I think should be the case, along with tobacco. There is no physical benefits to any of them that can't be produced chemically, in a lab.

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Which is why we should legalize the drugs and tax the fuck out of them. Addiction is an illness, but drug dealing is a business and so is recovery.

And I know what I'm talking about. Ask Bushpig. ::)

I dont know why she had to go and post that about you but let me say that if indeed you did write that, then i have even more respect for you for what you have been through and how you have persevered.



Both coke and heroin can be almost eradicated if we really wanted to eliminate them off the face of the earth, which is what I think should be the case, along with tobacco. There is no physical benefits to any of them that can't be produced chemically, in a lab.

There's no reason for one country to decide that a crop should be eradicated off the face of the planet and do that. If they want to eradicate it in the US, then that's fine. If they want to throw millions of people in jail like North Korea then that's their prerogative. We live in a democracy and can vote for people who are more enlightened than those who are power now. But we dont have the right to dictate to others what they should do in THEIR country and further, to invade it in order to destroy a crop.

How ironic that the country who supposedly stands for democracy and against repressive dictatorships would be invading other countries to tell them how they should live and what form of government they should have. 


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There's no reason for one country to decide that a crop should be eradicated off the face of the planet and do that. If they want to eradicate it in the US, then that's fine. If they want to throw millions of people in jail like North Korea then that's their prerogative. We live in a democracy and can vote for people who are more enlightened than those who are power now. But we dont have the right to dictate to others what they should do in THEIR country and further, to invade it in order to destroy a crop.

Hmmm. I'm conflicted about this because you're absolutely right. We have absolutely no business dictating to other countries. But, when you consider that Afghanistan is responsible for 90% of the worlds opium production and heroin is a hefty addiction and can easily be found here in the states, how else do you suppose we try to control it? We've both got a good understanding of "The War on Drugs" and how well that is working out and how wasteful it is. What other ways can we hinder the production of something that is highly addictive and is trafficked into our country and distributed as almost a sort of weapon against our people?

How ironic that the country who supposedly stands for democracy and against repressive dictatorships would be invading other countries to tell them how they should live and what form of government they should have.

It really is ironic! It truly speaks volumes about our current state of affairs too, doesn't it?
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But, when you consider that Afghanistan is responsible for 90% of the worlds opium production and heroin is a hefty addiction and can easily be found here in the states, how else do you suppose we try to control it?

Like I said before, find another way for the people growing it to make a living and feed their families. People dont grow the stuff to enable others to turn it into heroin and get high. They grow it to make money. In the case of a dirt poor country like Afghanistan, it really shouldn't take much to provide them with an monetary alternative. $1000 is probably more than most people make in a year.

In any case, it's not THEIR drug problem, it's ours. Why are so many Americans getting high on heroin should be the question being asked. I dont care how much of the stuff is imported, if people know better than to take it, then it wouldnt be a problem.  It wouldnt be imported as much to begin with.

Conservative groups are so afraid of education but that's what you have to do to teach people about the dangers of it. Show to kids the graphic scenes of those who have overdosed and who are taken to the ER while still alive. Otherwise they only hear about the glamorous part from their druggie friends.

There's other things that involve taking responsibility for our own problems rather than to blame other countries for them. It's much easier to blame Afghanistan or Colombia for our county's addiction to drugs but the demand for it emanates from within.

I also disagree about destroying the coca and poppy plants and making the medicines derived from it in a lab. I'm not sure that's even practical.

That's like the old gun control argument - guns dont kill people, people kill people. Well the poppy plant doesnt kill people, people misuse it and kill themselves. There's countless of people helped from suffering with medications such as morphine just like many people who save their own lives by using a gun in self-defense.
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Like I said before, find another way for the people growing it to make a living and feed their families. People dont grow the stuff to enable others to turn it into heroin and get high. They grow it to make money. In the case of a dirt poor country like Afghanistan, it really shouldn't take much to provide them with an monetary alternative. $1000 is probably more than most people make in a year.


True, true, true! OMG! I was thinking along those lines too and found this article when I searched what else could be grown over there!! :rotf:
 
Afghanistan Markets Pomegranates as Trendy Alternative to Opium Poppies

It's the latest step in a $12 million, U.S.-funded initiative to modernize and expand Afghanistan's pomegranate industry, which has long depended on domestic sales and small-scale exports to nearby countries. Even these exports have been severely hit by years of border fighting.

Will growing pomegranates in place of poppies be a remarkable substitute for heroin?? Is the demand for pomegranates higher than usual for the martini market?  :rotf:

In any case, it's not THEIR drug problem, it's ours. Why are so many Americans getting high on heroin should be the question being asked. I dont care how much of the stuff is imported, if people know better than to take it, then it wouldnt be a problem.  It wouldnt be imported as much to begin with.

Conservative groups are so afraid of education but that's what you have to do to teach people about the dangers of it. Show to kids the graphic scenes of those who have overdosed and who are taken to the ER while still alive. Otherwise they only hear about the glamorous part from their druggie friends.


I couldn't agree with you more, but I will say while I was in high school fresh out of parochial, crack smoking and AIDS burst onto the scene. We'd already been shown those propaganda weed films and thought they were a joke, even in catholic school and I can't really say we took them very seriously. At least I didn't because I didn't have any problem with unprotected sex or free basing coke.

I think we're on a better track now, they started the whole "just say no to drugs" bit with the kids as early as 2nd and 3rd grade and both of my children would bust my stones when I still smoked cigarettes (it's been almost a year since i have, can you believe it!?!)

I think it has a lot to do with the over glorification drug use has in movies and the fact that kids have too much damned free time on their hands as well.

There's other things that involve taking responsibility for our own problems rather than to blame other countries for them. It's much easier to blame Afghanistan or Colombia for our county's addiction to drugs but the demand for it emanates from within.

I also disagree about destroying the coca and poppy plants and making the medicines derived from it in a lab. I'm not sure that's even practical.


It's actually being done pretty routinely as Pers mentioned with the Subutext. There are also other synthetic pain blockers that have been on the market for quite sometime, some haven't been studied as acutely as others and cause cancer and what not, but I think once perfected, producing non-addictive synthetics might be beneficial in the long run.

That's like the old gun control argument - guns dont kill people, people kill people. Well the poppy plant doesnt kill people, people misuse it and kill themselves. There's countless of people helped from suffering with medications such as morphine just like many people who save their own lives by using a gun in self-defense.


Very good points, I can't really argue them much at all.  :vc:
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Deviouz1

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what i find interesting, ironic, and almost amusing is that this little backwards, stone throwing country full of religious zealots is in large part responsible for the fall of the USSR and which is now in the sights of the only other super power in the modern world. wouldnt it be kinda funny if they caused the US to fall in the exact same way they did to russia in the 80's? i mean i wouldnt even be able to bring myself to be mad at them.

Quote
In 1989, Soviet forces pulled out of Afghanistan. Fifteen thousand Soviet soldiers and countless Afghans had been killed in the decade-long war. Billions of dollars had been spent each year to support troops in Afghanistan. Unable to defeat the mujahidin and pressed by world opinion to leave Afghanistan, Soviet leader Gorbachev decided that the USSR had to get out. In part, the tide of the war had been turned by the introduction of US-made shoulder-launched antiaircraft missiles in 1987. With these missiles, the mujahidin shot down Soviet planes and helicopters every day, increasing the monetary and human cost of the war, and making Soviet strike tactics ineffective. Demoralized and with no victory in sight, the USSR's forces left Afghanistan.

The war had far-reaching effects on Afghanistan, the Soviets, and the US. Several million Afghans had either fled to neighboring Pakistan for refuge or had become internal refugees. In addition, millions more had died from starvation or from the Soviet bombings and raids. Among the survivors were a generation that had known only war, hatred, and fear. Homes, animals, and precious irrigation systems were destroyed, leaving the country barren and in ruin. Also, thousands of miniature land mines dropped by the Soviet planes continued to pose a hazard to the Afghan people long after the war with the USSR ended.

The USSR was also affected greatly by its failure. It lost fifteen thousand troops, but the true damage done was in the degradation of its image, and the billions of dollars it spent during the war. This fall from invincibility and vast expendature of money to finance the invasion in part caused the USSR to fall apart in the early 1990s.

One long-term effect of the Soviet invasion and pull-out was the establishment of a weak state full of religious hatred and hatred of richer nations: a breeding ground for terrorism. Though supplying the Afghan resistance with American guns and anti-aircraft missiles seemed like a good idea for the US in the 1980s, and was the reason for the Soviets? defeat, now as the US invades, they are met with their own guns. The significance of the sophisticated guns has yet to be determined. In light of the US involvement today in Afghanistan after the September 11th terrorist attacks, it is especially important to understand the history of the Soviet's involvement there so we can avoid making the same mistakes.

and yet here we go.

lol.

my penchant for rooting for the underdog is conflicting me something fierce.
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"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.  This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose."
~Thomas Jefferson 1813

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what i find interesting, ironic, and almost amusing is that this little backwards, stone throwing country full of religious zealots is in large part responsible for the fall of the USSR and which is now in the sights of the only other super power in the modern world. wouldnt it be kinda funny if they caused the US to fall in the exact same way they did to russia in the 80's? i mean i wouldnt even be able to bring myself to be mad at them.

and yet here we go.

lol.

my penchant for rooting for the underdog is conflicting me something fierce.


LMAO!! you're spot on!! i think it was bill maher or one of his guests who deftly pointed out one friday evening that by sinking billions and billions into iraq, we've essentially lost the "war" already. Osama's 9/11 attack was on our financial institutions and his intent was to destroy us financially and that is exactly what has happened.
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deBauch

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This always makes me think of privatized defense and exactly who is benefiting from all the death and destruction. It is really the root of both of these wars in particular, in my opinion.
 


Here ya go kidder...the "Why We Fight" documentary......

Trailer.....



The most pointed and thought provoking thing I've seen for a looooong time.

Ah fuck !!!!  I could only find the fucker broken down into 10 small parts...still......

Part One


Part Two


Part Three


Part Four


Part Five


Part Six


Part Seven


Part Eight


Part Nine


Part Ten




God bless the BBC  :uk:
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deBauch

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...actually...it may be 12 parts...check YouTube  :blush:


We dropped the fucking ball BIG TIME in Afghanistan.  We'd done the fuckers, militarily defeated quick smart, the Taliban were off into Pakistan quicker than a 16 year old British Asian forced wife.

Right at that point $100 billion should have been poured into the backward assed shytehole building roads, schools, donkey brothels WHAT THE FUCK EVER that would have made Abdul realise that we were white gods that moved amongst them and wanted them to franchise Afghan idol for a rosier war free future.

Instead some silly retarded cunt had the bright idea of fucking off to fuck up Iraq, Afghanistan got forgotten, the Taliban regrouped, shit loads of people died and we're now secretly negotiating with them which is probably our only option now that we've lost the war.

Its fucking odd.  When I worked for people I remember that if you fucked up you got sacked.  These cunts fuck up, shedloads of people die and its with complete and utter impunity..funny old world ?!?
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That looks really good. I watched the trailer and a portion of part 1 and I intend to watch the rest when I have more time.
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deBauch

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That looks really good. I watched the trailer and a portion of part 1 and I intend to watch the rest when I have more time.


Its THAT good that its actually kinda eerie  :snack:
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