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Author Topic: Pardon me ?!?  (Read 1496 times)

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deBauchTopic starter

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Pardon me ?!?
« on: January 12, 2009, 09:39:42 PM »

Funny old bunch you Yanks, tear arsing around the globe screaming Democracy, bad mouthing so called Dictators like my dear brother Fidel and yet the President of the United States of America has a dictatorial right to pardon anyone he likes as enshrined into the Constitution by the founding fathers. 

No checks or balances, not so much as a by your leave.  You ripped of the British royal pardon, something that we dropped centuries ago.

How do you feel about that, whats your view on it. 

Apparently, whilst there has been a litany of really REALLY dodgy Presidential pardons down the years that have caused an absolute outcry, the vast majority (something like 75%) of Yanks want to maintain this Presidential right.

Why  :uhuh:
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Johnny Storm

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 11:24:45 PM »

It's called heritage, fucknuckle.  U.S. democracy just didn't happen by immaculate conception.
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deBauchTopic starter

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 11:28:22 PM »

It's called heritage, fucknuckle.  U.S. democracy just didn't happen by immaculate conception.


Talking to a Pommie fucknuckle about "heritage"  :rotf:
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Fipronila

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 11:43:34 PM »

I think its a bunch of horseshit. All of it. They can keep on with it or let it go. I don't give a shit. Just giving an American point of view.
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2009, 11:49:16 PM »

The original intent of the pardon was much different than what it is used for today. One of the Federalists Papers written by either Madison or Hamilton (I cant be arsed to look it up) envisioned it being used to forgive acts of treason to make it easier to quash any insurgency against the government. It actually made a lot of sense in 1776 as did many other other Constitutional provisions.

Today, like many other provisions, it is woefully outdated. Why we can't have a constitutional convention to update the fucking thing so that it makes sense in the age we live in, I'll never be able to understand. We are living by an eighteenth century document which needs a library of Supreme Court books of decisions in order to make any sense of it and the framer's intent as applied to the world today.

HELLO, the framers had NO intent because they didnt fucking know about the type of world we would be living in today. It's just a silly game of jurisprudence where judges tailor their own preferences and beliefs with the "intent" of the framers and the constitution.

The way the pardon power is used today, it really does confer limited dictatorial powers on the President. Im sure that Madison and Hamilton would be taken back by it and be asking WTF? It is absolute, plenary and has no built in checks and balances.

Whether the idea came from the monarchs or a brain fart doesnt really matter. The point is it is perhaps the only provision in the Constitution where the president gets to act as king and no one can question it. Theoretically, he or his spouse can murder someone and he can pardon her or himself. Just look what Bush did with that slimeball Scooter Libby.
 
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deBauchTopic starter

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 12:01:32 AM »

The Libby thing was a fucking joke but get this.  I've heard a whisper that Bush may pre-emptively pardon himself and anyone in the administration for torturing people in the same way that Ford pardoned Nixon even though he had not been charged with anything.

That should put the cat amongst the pigeons if it happens  :snack:
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Fipronila

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 12:05:22 AM »


Today, like many other provisions, it is woefully outdated. Why we can't have a constitutional convention to update the fucking thing so that it makes sense in the age we live in, I'll never be able to understand. We are living by an eighteenth century document which needs a library of Supreme Court books of decisions in order to make any sense of it and the framer's intent as applied to the world today.

HELLO, the framers had NO intent because they didnt fucking know about the type of world we would be living in today. It's just a silly game of jurisprudence where judges tailor their own preferences and beliefs with the "intent" of the framers and the constitution.


Exactly - all that shit is so outdated like pardoning a fucking turkey on Thanksgiving and taking communion at Catholic Church. All the same to me - a bunch of stupid waste of time shit.

I think the pardon, if it's still going to be done should be for people who were imprisoned or charged ages ago for something that is outdated and wouldn't be charged for now.
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2009, 12:15:30 AM »

The Libby thing was a fucking joke but get this.  I've heard a whisper that Bush may pre-emptively pardon himself and anyone in the administration for torturing people in the same way that Ford pardoned Nixon even though he had not been charged with anything.

That should put the cat amongst the pigeons if it happens  :snack:

Oh, I'll tell you what, if i were his white house counsel, i'd tell him to absolutely do it. He'd be a fool if he doesn't. His political career is over and he doesn't know what he may face in the future, however remote, so he should go ahead and pardon himself and others. He's too narrow minded and stupid to even consider that what he did may be illegal so it's a long shot that he will.

If we want to be consistent, he and Cheney should also be put on trial for war crimes based on being responsible for the death of around 100,000 Iraqi civilians on account of a war started and fought on false pretenses. Just like Saddam had to face the music for the people he is responsible for killing.

He cant pardon himself for that but if it happened to be the Muslims who were the world superpower who could manipulate the UN instead of the US, you can bet that his ass would be grass.
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2009, 05:17:22 AM »

The royal perogative or pardon still exists Mudrat.
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2009, 06:59:14 PM »

Here we go, ratty..

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090113/ap_on_go_pr_wh/democrats_bush

Will he or won't he pardon himself? Stay tuned.
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2009, 09:13:41 AM »

I read through the list of pardons a couple of weeks ago, when they were announced. I found it a bit disturbing that the President of the USA was involved with pardoning relatively minor crimes.

?Brenda Jean Dolenz-Helmer of Fort Worth, Texas, for reporting or helping cover up a crime.

?Robert Earl Mohon Jr. of Grant, Ala., who was convicted of conspiracy to distribute marijuana.

?Daniel Figh Pue III of Conroe, Texas, convicted of illegal treatment, storage and disposal of a hazardous waste without a permit.

?Obie Gene Helton of Rossville, Ga., whose offense was unauthorized acquisition of food stamps.


Just to name a few. He seems to like these folks that reside in the south.
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2009, 09:25:10 AM »

I bet for some there mayy be more in it and hes been lobbied or hes been tapped up through the southern grapevine.

?Brenda Jean Dolenz-Helmer of Fort Worth, Texas, for reporting or helping cover up a crime.


what does this involve? The dope dealer may have shagged one of his daughters so shes nagging daddy. Or one of condeleza's relatives?

Well it seams free of mafia hoodlums like Clintons, although the hazardous waste one may be a business friend.

guessing here but it seems a bit mundane.
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 12:22:00 PM »

As an American, I think they need to get rid of the Presidential pardon. It's stupid.

Who are these 75% that want to keep it? Nobody EVER asks me about any of this shit where they come up with a number like that. I never get questioned during exit polls either. Who ARE these people?
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2009, 03:41:19 PM »

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2009, 05:01:33 PM »

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28735457/

There ya go


Good article about the border guards saga. He finally caved in to the public pressure but he commuted their sentence instead of pardoning them. Some people are still going to be pissed off.

If what they say about not pardoning anyone else is true then that also means Bush waited until the last hours and final acts of pardons to commute their sentence in spite of the all the protests and uproar over their convictions.

It also means he won't be pardoning himself which is pretty stupid not to do while he can. If for nothing else, than to save the country time and money in congressional hearings and investigations about whether he violated the wiretapping laws, etc.
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thekid65

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2009, 05:41:55 PM »

The wiretapping thing never bothered me one fucking bit at all. For a couple of reasons:

#1. They arent going to waste time/resources tapping Joe Blow American

#2. If you're fucking stupid enough to conduct illegal activities over the phone nowadays, then you deserve to get busted.

I dunno why folks were so up in arms over this....maybe it's just me, as I've got nothing to hide.
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deBauchTopic starter

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2009, 08:37:38 PM »

The wiretapping thing never bothered me one fucking bit at all. For a couple of reasons:

#1. They arent going to waste time/resources tapping Joe Blow American

#2. If you're fucking stupid enough to conduct illegal activities over the phone nowadays, then you deserve to get busted.

I dunno why folks were so up in arms over this....maybe it's just me, as I've got nothing to hide.


Yeah but hang on, don't you live in a land that goes to war to fight for the basic human....ah fuck it !

One upside to the pardon system that I heard about was some poor bastard that was looking at doing 14 years on some weird 3 strike technicality even though he had become an reformed upstanding member of the community....the pardon saved his ass.
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Fipronila

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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2009, 09:35:36 PM »

Exactly why I don't think they should do away with the pardoning.
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2009, 12:44:02 AM »

I'm all for second chances. 
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Re: Pardon me ?!?
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2009, 02:32:29 AM »

Here's the type of stuff that is gaining lots of momentum and headed for Bush's way after he leaves office..



Several congressional investigations are already being lined up by powerful Democrats.

Maybe he thinks that Obama will pardon him.
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