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Author Topic: Immigration - legal and illegal  (Read 1951 times)

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AZtucsonTopic starter

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Immigration - legal and illegal
« on: January 23, 2009, 06:24:30 PM »

I've always been democratic/sometimes radical/liberal/dashes of conservative, etc.  I was able to skip the Bleeding Heart phase of liberalism and never felt compelled to learn the lyrics to Kumbayah.

A group of us are organizing a fly-in fishing trip to Canada in the summer, and one of the people is jumping through paperwork hoops to gain entry to Canada because they have a DWI on their record.  You can't just wander over to Canada with that on your records because the border agents will tell you to fuck off back home, since they don't even want your tourist dollars if you are thus legally stained.  Apparently the right paperwork and something in the area of $200 will allow you in.

Then I ponder the U.S. policies, or lack thereof, and ask myself wtf is wrong with this picture?  To actually immigrate permanently to Canada you must attain a certain amount of "points" to be considered.  You accrue points by being educated, employable, not having a record of copulating with non-primates, etc. In general....being able to prove you can actually be a fucking asset to Canada rather than a barnacle on the hull of society.

In the U.S. we apparently don't give a fuck if you're a habitual felon (Mariel Boatlift), never worked a day in your life, have communicable diseases not even imagined in the worst nightmares of the CDC, or even bother to let us know your actually slithering across the damn border.

Now before anyone suggests my views are somehow ethnically or racially motivated, you can forget that shit because it's just not true.  My reasons are economic and practical. I see the problem as the U.S. willing to STILL be some sort of economic sponge that has no clear picture of the country's ability to keep absorbing millions of people from across the globe annually.  The vast majority of which would never be able to qualify if we adopted entry requirements such as Canada does.  Are the beer-swilling, moose shooting Canucks more prescient than us on such matters???

Clearly the Mexican/American border is a veritable sieve.  The Mexican government makes no effort to curb illegal immigration, nor to stop drug cartel activity that slops across the border in terms of the odd corpse hear and there, and Iraq like shootouts.  For some reason we are unwilling to say squat to Mexico about this - I believe the purported reason is they send us some oil.  And the bleeding heart sentiment that people?s lives suck in Mexico and Central America.  I?m not disputing that - I?ve been to Nogales, Mexico and seen truly wretched examples of human suffering.

But you know what??.those conditions exist all over the world.  It?s a tough fact of life.  Are we going to send empty oil tankers all over the world to fetch back everyone below the poverty level?

I?d like nothing more than if Obama tells Felipe Calderone ?Hey, fuck off.  We?re going to build this big-ass electrified wall all the damn way from the Pacific to the Carribean, and you can shove your oil.  You need us more than we need you.?

And while I?m ranting, I?d be in favor of closing the country to ALL immigration leagal or illegal for about 20 years to get our own affairs in order. The whole ?huddled masses? tradition came about when we were a growing country in need of warm bodies, among them, my 4 grandparents.  But those days are over in the sense we?re Standing Room Only now.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2009, 07:07:58 PM »

Funny how times have changed. Not that I'm doubting your word, but I cant imagine a record check being done in order to gain entry to Canada for what sounds like a kick-ass fishing trip. Why even mention it (the DWI)? Pre 9-11, I traveled back and forth between Canada and the USA numerous times, never questioned once. Albeit, I have not had the occasion to return post 9-11.

I'm with you on the rest of your sentiments though.. but yeah, I'll be a little more racial on this, as it's an issue in my neck of the woods. Your main gripe is with the beaners, and more importantly, the illegal ones. I honestly dont see any improvement under the Obama administration, and that worries me. He's too forgiving, IMO..and not too concerned with protecting the USA (hence, the actions done in his first day of office).

You hit the nail on the head about the lack of cooperation with the Mexican government. If there were agents from both agencies stationed on both sides of the border, the illegal issue could be greatly reduced. But no, it's up to the USA to deal with this problem.

I'm not clear if you have an issue with the legal immigrants.. the ones that go through the hassle of completing the necessary paperwork, and migrate here to earn a living, and make a decent life for themselves, and their families. Face it, they are doing work that "whitey" wants no part of...especially for the wage they work for.

What really irritates the living fuck out of me is the fact that a lot of states police officers, arent permitted to find out if a person is here legally or not, when being pulled over for a simple traffic ticket. The so-called "sanctuary states". Every law enforcement agency should be able to access a database that shows where someone is here legally, or not. No if's and's, or but's about it. The fucking problem is that the congressmen, especially in the SW states are against this type of shit, because they are being lobbied by business's that want to hire these illegal immigrants, and their constituency is primarily made up of Mexicans, who are sympathetic to the cause.

My wife is a waitress, and at her former place of employment, 90% of the cooks/dishwashers/bussers were beaners, and probably 50% of the other waitresses were. ALL were here illegally, with forged paperwork. It's so easy to do for them.

So..what's the solution? Do you put the burden on employers to verify all paperwork submitted to them? Thats a huge expense. At the same time, there are employers that knowing turn a blind eye...in order to pay a lower wage, and offer little, or no benefits.

If it were up to me? First things first...station border guards every 500 yds on the Mexican border...with authorization to shoot to kill. It wouldnt take but about 100 dead beaners for the message to get across to those that are trying to cross the border illegally that we arent going to put up with this shit.

Secondly, you get pulled over, or questioned by a police officer...and cant prove that you're an American, or here legally? Back you fucking go..no hearings, no questions asked. But you have to be able to prove you are here legally, and you have to be asked to do so.

It makes me fucking sick to read/hear the an illegal immigrant has been convicted of a murder, or other heinous crime...only to find out that he/she has had contact with the police prior to the aforementioned incident..but they werent able to ask him/her..or make him/her prove that they were here legally.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2009, 09:38:34 AM »

Here in New York, there's a ton of illegal immigrants. Some of them are Hispanic and guess what? They get all the shit. But there's a huge enclave of illegal IRISH immigrants in Queens and Brooklyn, and no one says shit to them. For one reason, they're white. Another is that they don't hang out at the 7-11 all day looking for work - most of them are employed either in restaurants or as domestics.

I don't have a problem with people emigrating to this country, not at all. My dad's family and my mom's came here from France and Ireland. But they didn't slither in under the radar. If you want to come here, then you should prove that you're not going to be a burden on our otherwise strained economy. Poitical asylum is one thing, but you cannot convince me that all of the illegals in this country are here because they're in imminent danger at home.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 01:55:50 PM »

No need for a fence.

We should enact strict laws heavily punishing those caught knowingly hiring illegal labor. You get caught, you get a large fine, shut down for a month of governmental snooping and given a warning. You get caught again, you get shut down. Period. And your business is sold off to the highest bidder.

There's an estimated 3 million illegals living and working in these United States. Those are jobs we desperately need right now and closing the border is far easier than erecting walls, placing cameras and running border controls. All of these have not even slowed the flow.

Take away the opportunity for work and they will mostly stop coming here.

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 02:06:36 PM »

"knowingly" is the key here. I agree with you on that aspect. But if a beaner presents all the appropriate paperwork, is it fair to ask the employer to go to the expense of checking it's authenticity? If you require that, then beaners wont get hired, period.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2009, 02:11:51 PM »

No need for a fence.

We should enact strict laws heavily punishing those caught knowingly hiring illegal labor. You get caught, you get a large fine, shut down for a month of governmental snooping and given a warning. You get caught again, you get shut down. Period. And your business is sold off to the highest bidder.

There's an estimated 3 million illegals living and working in these United States. Those are jobs we desperately need right now and closing the border is far easier than erecting walls, placing cameras and running border controls. All of these have not even slowed the flow.

Take away the opportunity for work and they will mostly stop coming here.

The laws are already there.  They're just not enforced.
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Johnny Storm

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2009, 02:15:26 PM »

"knowingly" is the key here. I agree with you on that aspect. But if a beaner presents all the appropriate paperwork, is it fair to ask the employer to go to the expense of checking it's authenticity? If you require that, then beaners wont get hired, period.

SS# checks can be done with just a phone call.  There are business out there that provide that service, but they haven't flourished since the mid/early 90's because who's going to buy a service that no one needs.  It all goes back to enforcing the laws on the books.   
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thekid65

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2009, 02:17:29 PM »

I could be wrong, but getting issued a "green card" doesnt give you a SS#, and that is where the forgeries are done, methinks.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2009, 02:32:20 PM »

I could be wrong, but getting issued a "green card" doesnt give you a SS#, and that is where the forgeries are done, methinks.

A "green card" or Permanent Resident Alien Card is just like a Social Security Card with respect to legal employment.  Both are widely forged and stolen, but a simple check can catch 99% of the forgeries.  In each case the number has to match the full name and DOB of the legal holder. 

If the number is stolen, more than likely the victim will be employed in another state, incarcerated or dead. 

Forgery is what illegals do because it's easiest, and no one is victimized...no harm, no foul..right?  Stealing a number will/should lead to prosecution because the vic is tied to that number's history for tax, SS benefits and credit purposes.
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thekid65

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2009, 02:40:35 PM »

So, does not spending the $$ to check to see if paperwork is legitimate, constitute "knowingly" hiring illegal labor? You dont want to put an unfair burden on business here.. and face it, a lot of businesses depend on Mexican labor.. including farmers...who are struggling as it is.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in this case. Stop the motherfuckers from getting in, in the first place.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2009, 03:21:02 PM »

There are so many sub-issues in this thread that merit their own threads that I dont know where to start - Canadian immigration, the Mexican border, illegals in this country, the laws we have and should have, enforcement and the type of jobs being performed by illegals. Wow. The proverbial can of worms.

For one thing, the number of illegals in this country is closer to 13 million than 3 million though lately it is likely that the numbers have decreased because many of them have started to go back due to the economy.  

One thing is for certain, the US immigration system is fucked up and needs to be completely overhauled. It is the product of piecemeal legislation that started back with the Chinese Exclusion Act.

Since then there have been all sorts of seemingly arbitrary restrictions and preferences for groups immigrating to the US. For example, Cubans who land on US grounds are given legal status and Haitians who do the same are deported. It is a model of inconsistency and makes no sense.

There ARE laws against people with communicable diseases and those convicted of crimes but in many cases, I have seen good hard working people being deported and families broken up because of something relatively minor they did 20 years ago like shoplifting or something to do with prostitution.

9-11 exposed some of the problems with the immigration laws and the result as you would expect, was an overreaction by the government which does more harm than good. Just like the war in Iraq. That's why I cant understand how Bush didnt do more to get his party on board to take a long look at our system. It can be argued that it was a failure of the the immigration system which lead to 9-11. 

A few of the attackers entered on tourist visas and overstayed including at least one of the pilots. Many had yellow and red flags in their backgrounds which should have lead to deportation but we know that didnt happen. If we had a system like the present Canadian one that AZ described, it is unlikely that 9-11 would have occurred.

We need a sensible system in place like that which actually weeds out bad people AND a different set of laws that deals rationally with those who are already in this country. Deporting 12 million people is a conservative pipe dream which would add another half a trillion dollars to our debt and cause wild price increases related to farm labor. Who the fuck is going to line up for jobs where you stand in the sun all day on your knees for 9 hours a day to pick things like peppers?
 

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Cookie Monster

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2009, 03:40:11 PM »

You have simple choices similar to what the red skins had. You either Assimilate them which means and end to multi-culturalism, or you deport them, or you either eventually go to war with them and or be ruled by them.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2009, 03:43:29 PM »

Holy shit, when did Ender get here? Hi Ender!

Anyway  - the whole Caroline Kennedy thing got me thinking (a rarity, I know). Isn't it better that someone in this country illegally is at least working, as opposed to jumping the proverbial fence and running to the nearest DSS office and applying for benefits (on an application that is in Spanish, may I add)? Granted, once employed they should have to report their earnings and pay taxes like the rest of us, but I don't see how making it harder to get in is going to help. It seems like nobody at the borders is doing shit anyway.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2009, 07:18:57 PM »

The irony is of course is that the US is making it harder and harder for people to get into the US if you fly there. The Visa system has been changed, and you often now have to have an interview with the US consulate !

That presumably is to stop " terrorists"  from flying over

Obviously, a maniacal terrorist  would never think about flying to Mexico, and crossing the border after the latest border guard budget cuts?
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2009, 01:19:33 AM »

The irony is of course is that the US is making it harder and harder for people to get into the US if you fly there. The Visa system has been changed, and you often now have to have an interview with the US consulate !

That presumably is to stop " terrorists"  from flying over

Obviously, a maniacal terrorist  would never think about flying to Mexico, and crossing the border after the latest border guard budget cuts?


Terrorists would never fly to the USA because you get asked on your visa application if indeed you are a terrorist  :confused:

I could have sworn that the USA was one of the toughest countries in the world to get citizenship in ?!?

It seems pretty fucking odd to me that this continues to be a running sore in Yank politics, it can't be that fucking hard to get sorted out can it ?
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AZtucsonTopic starter

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2009, 10:54:09 AM »

A quick point first: I don't subscribe to the "they do the jobs Ammericans don't want to do."  I think this is just a blanket, throw-away line meant to gloss over the problem.  Sure, they work the fields in specific locations - primarily California.  But there's no lettuce fields in Chicago or Kentucky, etc.  And agricultural labor is so site specific that it lends itself to easier controlling.

And repatriating illegals is such a monumental and costly task that assimilation through somehow bringing them into the tax structure and compliance with existing laws would seem the most viable solution.  Spot-checks, such as producing proof of citizenship during a traffic stop for instance, would be a monstorously expensive pandora's box.  As an example, a large portion of the illegals entering through Mexico are from other Central American countries like El Salvador for instance.  So we can't just load up buses, drive over to Juarez and kick the fuckers off the bus.  Then, what do tyou do with illegal Chinese for example.

Not to even mention how that would clog the legal and transportation systems.  Start doing spot-checks and every podunk P.D. around the country is going to have a herd to be driven back to their own shores.  Nightmare.  It would make Iraq look like a blue-light special.  Not to even mention the new illegals you'd pass going the other way on the trip to Mexico.

The most logical first step is to enforce the borders specifically the Mexican border.  We know where, we know how.  But it seems we're reticent to piss anyone off, an odd position since we've got the hubris to bulldoze over other parts of the world.  There ARE other points of entry but their numbers pale in comparison.

That's the expensive part.  The cheaper follow up is to adopt legal immigration requirements, as in the case of Canada.  The U.S. is long past the growing industrial phase of it's growth.  We don't need more low-end labor to stoke the furnaces of industry.  And we continue to need less every year.  In the last couple years Somalis have immigrated by the droves without bringing any skills with them.  I mean how the fuck do you develop skills while fighting over scraps of food.

To accomplish this won't take a lot of cash, just the realization that our society haschanged from the 1900 era, and that our immigration needs to change along with it.
We've possibly made it more difficult to enter the U.S. strictly along the lines of being terr
threats, but our basic philosophy regarding immigrants has remained unchanged.
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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2009, 02:12:33 PM »

On the subject of what to do with those in the country illegally - in terms of an economic and utilitarian analysis, the answer smacks you in the face. Just because someone entered the country illegally when we had 5 people patrolling the 2000 mile border doesnt mean that we need to hunt them down, detain them until they have their day in court, and deport them.

You have to wonder about the people who say NO AMNESTY and "send them all back" if they actually have any fucking clue of the repercussions of what they are talking about or if they have any cognitive abilities to even have a clue in the first place. There are other mutually beneficial solutions to both the alien and the government. Let's start with the current approach.

The best estimates are that there are anywhere from 12 to 20 million illegal immigrants. Most sources seem to say 12 million so we'll go with that for the sake of argument.

First, how much of an effort would it take to deport 12 million people? They are obviously already here illegally living in an underground world working illegally with no driver's license, no valid social security number (though some have valid tax ID numbers) so presumably they arent just going to pack up and leave because we pass another 100 laws that says they have to. That means we have to start a campaign to find these people and purge ourselves of them to carry out the right wing NO AMNESTY dogma. A WAR on Illegal Aliens, if you will, to put it in Conservative rallying terms.

How many border guards and immigration agents is the government going to have to hire to round these people up and at what cost? I suppose that would help things on the employment front but i could think of a 1000 things to better spend money on then immigration agents to descend on cities across the US looking for illegals. I'm sure most people can.

Where are they going to detain these people? You can't just put them in a Greyhound bus and drive them to the border like AZ mentioned or have Capt. Sully fly them and drop them off in East China Sea on the whim of a border patrol after an arrest; even illegal aliens have the right to have their case heard in court to see if they have a legal basis for staying here. No doubt, some will have a legal basis.

So unless they agree to depart voluntarily let's say that 75% of the 12 million, some 9 million illegals comprised of men, women and children are going to have to be detained, housed, clothed, provided with basic medical care and fed by the government as they await their day in court. Whether the government decides to build tent cities under highways or build new detention centers across the country, it is going to cost a shitload of money. How much is this going to add to our sky rocketing deficit? Would this really be a practical approach?

The immigration courts are already stretched for resources to the edge as it is today. As of now it's not usual for a typical deportation case to take about one year or more plus another 1-2 years if an appeal is filed.

What is it going to do to them to when they get flooded with another 9 million cases and aliens who have the right to have their cases heard in court and then have the right to file an appeal if a trial court orders that they have no legal basis to be here? How much more is it going to cost to provide venues, government lawyers, judges and support staff to process the cases of the equivalent of lines of people waiting to fill not one or two or ten or even 100 but 120 Tampa Stadiums where the Super Bowl will be held next Sunday?

When you watch the mass of people at the game, try to imagine a crowd over 100 times bigger which is larger than the population of every city in the United States except maybe New York, comprised of illegals which need to be rounded up, detained, provided with housing, food, medical care, access to courts for up to 3 years, and assuming they don't have a legal basis to be here, transportation back home among other things. Figure out the logistics and monetary costs for that and get back to me so that we can continue fighting our War Against Illegals.

Compare and contrast that with a simple approach that assimilates them into society and makes those who aren't criminals, terrorists or otherwise undesirables, legal. One that shifts the focus from having thousands of government agents trying to find them, to having them come to the government to declare themselves as illegals.

Let's start with the immigration processing fees. Several times in the last 20 years, the US government has allowed those who were illegally in the country, not undesirables, and otherwise eligible to become US residents such as those married to US citizens, to become legal by filing paperwork and paying a penalty - last time it was $1,000. And believe me, there was a mad rush to pay the penalty every time before the deadline expired that took the government years to process over the usual delays. This is on top of the hundreds of dollars they have to pay in processing fees.

How much in revenues would it be to the government if they have to pay something in the order of $1,500 each? Well, by my math 12 million times 1,500 = 18 BILLION DOLLARS! Whatever the actual number turns out to be, it's money that is flowing TO the government instead of AWAY from the government for things like like providing toilets and toilet paper to illegals in detention who have never been arrested for anything other than for deportation.

Let's move to taxes. How much money would flow to the government if they make illegals pay back taxes on wages they earned while working illegally for say, the past 5 years AND by giving the millions who are currently working illegally a valid social security number and including them in the tax base from now on?

Almost overnight those millions of illegals who are earning $25,000 a year under the table picking lettuce and peppers, changing the cumstained sheets in motel rooms, and processing dead chickens in chicken plants now have to pay social security, medicare and taxes on their wages. Not "have" so much then "can" pay into the system and become a part of it because most if not all of them have the dream of becoming legal residents of the United States.

With a SS# and a legal job, now perhaps they can be covered by employer health plans and dont have to go to the ER without insurance every time little Manuel gets an ear infection. Also, state and local government will be getting more tax revenues to help pay for services from millions who are now in the system.

There are other things I can mention like the cost savings from going after the relatively few illegals who have been arrested and released instead of going after and breaking up millions of families where US citizen wife and kids see their husbands and fathers rounded up, detained and after several months or years, deported at tremendous cost to the government and those people.

You really have to be a thick headed, backward thinking closed minded idiot not to see that assimilating those who are already in this country and not criminals is the only sensible approach to take versus trying to round all of them up and deporting them. All the while making them public charges while in custody and while they continue to work without paying taxes, social security or anything else because the government wont give them a fucking social security card or allow them to work legally.

The solution isnt to keep following the same myopic approach that we have been doing up to now and praying to Jehovah or whatever right wing god you believe in that they just go away because we don't allow them to stay.

Making criminals out of illegals and everyone who employs them, leases or sells a home to them, sells them food or anything else isnt going to make things any better. It will just create more problems. More criminals who aren't really criminals. We need to shift away from our let's put more people in jail mentality and start to look at the big picture instead of the minutia.




 
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thekid65

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2009, 03:13:59 PM »

Good points, Bra1n, however I have to take issue with the 25k/year statement, I believe they average less than 10k, especially the farm workers. Along that line, to be a little more clear on the point Aztucson brought up about my statement relating to the immigrants doing work that "whitey" doesnt want to....I should have been a bit more clear..they are doing the work that "whitey" wont do for the wages, and lack of benefits that are offered.

I found a link earlier that said the average migrant farm worker makes around 6500k/year (season)..but I'll be fucked if I can find it now :banger:
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Brimstone Jack

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2009, 08:50:23 PM »

My views on immigration place me in the unenviable position of wanting to keep entry level jobs available for Americans, but not being willing to give up my wetback gardener.
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deBauch

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Re: Immigration - legal and illegal
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2009, 12:44:25 AM »

The problem is that we can all see racial tension and most likely clashes coming right around the corner.  If tensions were bubbling during the boom times they will undoubtedly explode when there is mass unemployment and the far right who haven't had so much as a look in for decades will profit from it as they always do.

Its a ticking time bomb and just one of the factors that will make the oncoming depression particularly nasty.
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