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Author Topic: Afghanistan  (Read 9703 times)

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deBauchTopic starter

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Afghanistan
« on: February 04, 2009, 02:22:42 PM »

I suppose that it kinda sums the whole thing up that the four country's of the majority of the posters here are at war and the fucking thing doesn't even warrant a thread.  There seems to be a mass communal anesthesia about the whole thing which is pretty fucking shocking really.

Anyway...get the fuck out and get the fuck out now.  I can't fucking believe that young men and women from my land are dying in their prime in a completely unwinnable war and for no fucking reason.

Say you ?
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Violator

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 02:25:53 PM »

I suppose that it kinda sums the whole thing up that the four country's of the majority of the posters here are at war and the fucking thing doesn't even warrant a thread.  There seems to be a mass communal anesthesia about the whole thing which is pretty fucking shocking really.

Anyway...get the fuck out and get the fuck out now.  I can't fucking believe that young men and women from my land are dying in their prime in a completely unwinnable war and for no fucking reason.

Say you ?
You know my stance Deb, i'm always behind you on the fake "terrorist" war, that is doing nothing but crushing our economy, and killing thousands of innocent people(on both sides)

meanwhile, Bush gets his new property and huge house and never has to set foot in a war...

oh the irony...
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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 02:47:41 PM »

I've never been clear as to why we were there in the first place, but I'm not that bright so...
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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2009, 02:51:45 PM »

I don't think anyone has a real and factual idea as to why we are still over there...

Unless we get a sweet percentage off that awesome and ever growing Opium trade...
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thekid65

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 02:53:53 PM »

I'm a bit torn on the Afghani thing. On one hand, I hate to turn it back over to the Taliban, thereby enabling another safe-haven for Osama, and the likes. They also fund themselves by producing one of the nastiest, and most addictive drugs in the world, heroin.

Obama has made it crystal clear that he's more about human rights, as opposed to making sure that our country never experiences another 9-11...and thats cool, if it works..but it does make me a bit nervous.

On the other hand, the Soviet Union was there battling these fuckers for what, 10 years? And never got anywhere... so it may just be a waste of time, money, and American lives.
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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 03:03:32 PM »

Quote
On one hand, I hate to turn it back over to the Taliban, thereby enabling another safe-haven for Osama, and the likes.
While i don't agree with you on the terrorist thing, the thing that still worries me when it comes to you and this war thing is that you still back or believe in occupation of a foreign country, which it is.

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Obama has made it crystal clear that he's more about human rights, as opposed to making sure that our country never experiences another 9-11
Honestly Kid, if the United States just simply stopped trying to invade and fix everything, and just dealt with our own issues, I don't think the so called terrorist thing would be an issue.  I mean look what we are doing all over again, training the  Iraqi's, next will be Iran, and the whole cycle will just repeat down the road.

Quote
so it may just be a waste of time, money, and American lives.
It wouldn't be if we had a real reason for ever going there in the first place.  Osama was in the hills, yet we bombed the entire country?  Then Osama left and went into hiding, so we continue to bomb the entire country and then occupy, and turn our attention to Iraq.  Do the same thing there, Osama is nowhere to be found.

I just don't see how this plan is working out to bring Peace and Democracy to a region, that neither want our version of Peace or Democracy.  Not to mention as upset as you or any American can be about 2 building, don't you think they have a bit more right to be upset about having there entire countries destroyed?

The Opium farming has grown over 100% since the war has started in Afghanistan, i can't say it has worked out in the public view.
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thekid65

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 03:18:22 PM »

Agreed, at this moment, we need to fix our own backyard before fucking with someone elses...thats fo-sho. And the real reason we had for going over there in the first place, was to get Osama...and at that point, he wasnt in the hills, and defo wasnt in Pakistan (Clinton had his fucking shot, and blew it).

Face it Vio, if 9-11 hadnt happened, we wouldnt be there. We bombed the country because the fuckers were harboring those who would repeat that action, if given the chance.

I dont think anything will repeat itself down the road, at least not in the near future...however, if Obama's "diplomatic plan" about dealing with Iran, and other Arabian countries fails, and we are attacked again...well, #1, he wont last two terms..and #2..the public outcry will be so loud that he'll have to act, and pretty much throw diplomacy out the window. I'm giving the Prez a shot...albeit I'm not sure it's going to work.
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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 03:25:07 PM »

Quote
Face it Vio, if 9-11 hadnt happened, we wouldnt be there.
maybe on the surface, but the US has been playing it's hand over there for years, they've been bombing our bases, and ships for decades.  We should have left ages ago.  IMO 9-11 or 93 would have never happened.

Quote
We bombed the country because the fuckers were harboring those who would repeat that action, if given the chance.
This is the place were me and you will just have to agree to disagree.  The US doesn't hardly ever extradite people to other countries (unless it's a viable ally)for crimes they committed.  But other countries are supposed to do so for us?  it doesn't work that way Kid.
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thekid65

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 03:48:36 PM »

Perhaps it doesnt work that way...but shouldn't it? Especially in a case such as this, where there was going to be obvious repercussions? Face it, in all walks of life.. you dont go hitting the biggest dog on the block in the mouth, and not expect to get hit back twice as hard. You cut your teeth in the city...you know the score.

Face it, the fuckers could have handed his ass to us on a silver platter, and all would be cool..but because the Taliban actually ran the joint, they werent able to do so. So we took it upon ourselves to remove the people in real control of that country that were responsible for keeping the shitstick hidden. You know, that someone knew exactly where he was, at any given time, but chose not to cough the fucker up.

Lemmee ask you this, Vio.. what would you have done, being in Bush's position..and just having one of the most important buildings in America leveled, combined with 3500 lives lost? What would you have done differently?
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Violator

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 04:01:39 PM »

Quote
Lemmee ask you this, Vio.. what would you have done, being in Bush's position..and just having one of the most important buildings in America leveled, combined with 3500 lives lost? What would you have done differently?
Honestly, I wouldn't have rushed into Afghanistan.  Bin Laden never once took responsibility for the attack, there is no factual proof he did so.  A fake and obvious imposter on a video doesn't confirm IMO that he did.

Now if the US really wanted Bin Laden, they would have gotten him, period.  Lets be honest, this has alot more implications that just Bin Laden.

I would have worked WITH the UN, and other countries over more time to get to the bottom of the situation and used THEIR sympathy for our misfortune(which was huge at the time)to help us get the real answers, instead of going it alone and alienating ourselves from the rest of the world.

Quote
you dont go hitting the biggest dog on the block in the mouth, and not expect to get hit back twice as hard. You cut your teeth in the city...you know the score.
This is fair, and I agree, WHEN you have a real opponent to fight.  The US has no way of winning when fighting an invisible enemy.  You tend to start throwing punches in the air, and just hoping it lands and makes contact.  Which is exactly the position we are in.

Quote
Face it, the fuckers could have handed his ass to us on a silver platter, and all would be cool..but because the Taliban actually ran the joint, they werent able to do so.
While i agree, i also understand their respective position.  They would be looking at their own deaths either way.  IMO they chose the lesser of 2 evils, as the Arab communities would have never forgiven them for doing so.  They were basically stuck, and they also knew the US in the long haul wasn't going to be an ally.

Quote
combined with 3500 lives lost?
And how many have they lost?  over 2 million at this point spanning to complete countries.  Look we can argue symantics all you like, the bottom line is, we are NOT looking for Bin Laden.

Let me ask you a question...

if they actually got Bin Laden, would all this cease?

because i say no, it would go on, like nothing happened.
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thekid65

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 05:48:29 PM »

The UN has no balls, Vio... you know that as well as everyone. They would have had us sending a greeting card to Mohamed Atta's family, saying "hope your son enjoyed his flight to America".

Fuck them.

As to your point about an "invisible enemy", I agree, and we'll probably find ourselves in the same spot the Ruskies did a couple of decades ago. It's extremely tough terrain, and especially tough if they can cross over to Pakistan and get some tribal sanctuary. I do tend to dissagree that they wouldnt have had an ally though..methinks if this Iraq thing wouldnt have come about, we could have been more focused.

Getting Bin Ladin would be a huge step, IMO, into stopping, or at least slowing down shit. And would stop the incursions into Pakistan. Now I know you have doubts as to whether the videos are legit (I for one, do not)..but tell me this..if you were a man wanted by the most powerful country in the world.. would you have not, at the very least...put out a video claiming your innocence in this matter?
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deBauchTopic starter

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 06:09:20 PM »

I'm a bit torn on the Afghani thing. On one hand, I hate to turn it back over to the Taliban, thereby enabling another safe-haven for Osama, and the likes.

The safe haven thing is utter bollocks really...now its no longer the safe haven, its moved to South Waziristan, drive them out of there and it will be Kashmir, then Indonesia etc etc  Its purely chasing shadows.

We've got un-manned drones that can drop a 500lb'der on turban so why invade and try to hold territory.  You can't beat an insurgency, its been proven time and time again and yet STILL no fucker learns.

Fuck the Afghans.  Fuck this "giving them democracy crap", a people DESERVE the government that they get. 

If they haven't got the bollocks to stop their fellow countrymen being strung up from goalposts then fuck 'em.  I don't give a flying fuck if Afghan girls are now going to school, its not my fucking problem and none of my business if they don't.

All I want is not to get blown up when I'm supping my frappalappachino down Starbucks and I've already solved that fucker. 

Spend 1/100th of the countless billions spent so far on the most kick ass infiltration / high tech / satellites up the ass global CIA type outfit that the world has ever seen.  Offer every fucker that either gets deep inside or turns traitor a $100 million reward and a tropical island and chew the fuckers up from the inside, fuck, even the disciples had a Judas.

Of course this will never happen because there are no multi billion dollar defence contracts involved.
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deBauchTopic starter

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 06:15:46 PM »

Getting Bin Ladin would be a huge step, IMO, into stopping, or at least slowing down shit.


No it wouldn't, he'd just become a martyr, the whole Yank obsession with Bin Laden is just so fucking Wild West, dudes with the black hats crap and a major reason why the rest of the world just giggled at the whole "War on Terror" nonsense.
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thekid65

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 06:22:13 PM »

The safe haven thing is utter bollocks really...now its no longer the safe haven, its moved to South Waziristan, drive them out of there and it will be Kashmir, then Indonesia etc etc  Its purely chasing shadows.

Valid.. I'll buy that...I guess theres something in me that doesnt want to have it come full circle, and re-establish in Afghanistan.

Quote
We've got un-manned drones that can drop a 500lb'der on turban so why invade and try to hold territory.  You can't beat an insurgency, its been proven time and time again and yet STILL no fucker learns.

And ya know what the prob is there? Everyone fucking whines because "civilians" get taken out in the mix too. Fuck the civilians I say, in this case... don't let the fuckers hide in your tent, and your tent wont get bombed.



Quote
If they haven't got the bollocks to stop their fellow countrymen being strung up from goalposts then fuck 'em.  I don't give a flying fuck if Afghan girls are now going to school, its not my fucking problem and none of my business if they don't.

Agreed, it's "none of our business" but damn man..every kid should have the right to an education..and every woman should be treated with some type of respect. Much like the civil war here...a lot of folks got tired of seeing the black man stepped on.

Quote
All I want is not to get blown up when I'm supping my frappalappachino down Starbucks and I've already solved that fucker.

If yer paying $5 for a cup of coffee in todays economy...you deserve it. 

Quote
Spend 1/100th of the countless billions spent so far on the most kick ass infiltration / high tech / satellites up the ass global CIA type outfit that the world has ever seen.  Offer every fucker that either gets deep inside or turns traitor a $100 million reward and a tropical island and chew the fuckers up from the inside, fuck, even the disciples had a Judas.

Of course this will never happen because there are no multi billion dollar defence contracts involved.


Well fuck, we gotta keep ourselves employed over here Holmes..only the US Government is hiring these days...
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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 06:37:19 PM »

V made a quality point about how the US missed out on riding a great wave of global sympathy and an ideal opportunity to galvanise a proper concerted effort.  The dumbfuck in charge was in the pocket of people that had another agenda and that was a real shame.  Cometh the hour, cometh the dickhead.
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Ender

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 07:15:15 PM »

You know what the funniest thing about Afghanistan and the Taliban is?

Get this.

Back when Regan was president we were arming and training the taliban to help them fight off Russia as the Afghan government was incapable and the Taliban was the only group capable of launching a defence against them.

Back then we called them "freedom fighters". Or "The rebels against Russian occupation".

What did the Taliban do in return for this training and arming? They were going around destroying the poppy fields.

They always hated us, but were happy to gain our assistance. Just like the majority of the Arab nations hate us but are happy to take our money for oil. And keep in mind, most of the Taliban are people who left Saudi Arabia because they hated the dealings the Saudi government had with the United States.

Now the Taliban are ~encouraging~ poppy production in Afghanistan. Why? Mostly because they feel the entire United States will become addicted to heroine if they send enough over. And they're making some cash off the deal to fund their organization

There's also the pipeline the Afghan government allowed us to build once we started feeding the money to them instead of the Taliban. A pipeline the Taliban would likely destroy if we stopped supporting the Afghan government.

We're in Afghanistan because of oil and the "Drug War". We just changed the name to 'The war on Terror". Same players, same problems, different name.

Oh, and by the way. We are losing our base in Kazakhstan (our major deployment base for this war). Why? Because the Kazakhstan government wants us to leave. Why? Because the Russians are offering them more money to put their own base there instead.
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Ender

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 07:21:10 PM »

V made a quality point about how the US missed out on riding a great wave of global sympathy and an ideal opportunity to galvanise a proper concerted effort.  The dumbfuck in charge was in the pocket of people that had another agenda and that was a real shame.  Cometh the hour, cometh the dickhead.

Absolutely. Bush should have ridden the wave with a "Buy American, invest American" campaign. I would have made the point of "They wish to destroy us? Then lets make ourselves stronger than ever."

But the dumbass wanted to pay toughguy and the whole world is suffering because of it.

On the upside. He gets to retire comfortably and make comments like "History will vindicate me". And 'I did the best job I could".

Dude should be in jail. Unfortunately the Democrats didn't have the balls to impeach him.

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 07:32:51 PM »

Quote
The UN has no balls, Vio... you know that as well as everyone. They would have had us sending a greeting card to Mohamed Atta's family, saying "hope your son enjoyed his flight to America".
No denying this, but isn't this the same crap we are feeding Iran?

So why is it ok for the US to just up and say "fuck'em" but Iran can't? 

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if you were a man wanted by the most powerful country in the world.. would you have not, at the very least...put out a video claiming your innocence in this matter?
Bin Laden over the years has had no qualms about expressing whay he has and has not done...Hell, the US still to this VERY DAY is funding Bin Laden in the Baltic region...I honestly think that if Bin Laden had a real hand in it, he'd absolutely say so.

Quote
V made a quality point about how the US missed out on riding a great wave of global sympathy and an ideal opportunity to galvanise a proper concerted effort.
Exactly, almost the single worst decision Bush could have made.  While the US might not have been the most loved, as soon as that happened, almost every ally was willing to bend over and help us...

pity...
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AZtucson

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 10:30:57 PM »

You know what the funniest thing about Afghanistan and the Taliban is?

Get this.

Back when Regan was president we were arming and training the taliban to help them fight off Russia as the Afghan government was incapable and the Taliban was the only group capable of launching a defence against them.

Back then we called them "freedom fighters". Or "The rebels against Russian occupation".

Actually, it was the mujahadin we were training and arming. The Russian occupation in Afghanistan brought in liquor and other shit associated with non-muslim culture, which some purists didn't appreciate.  After the Russians left, the U.S. believed the Afghans would return to their moderate Muslim stature.  But a group of young radical muslims started the Taliban to rid the country of all the remnants of the "western world" that the Russians left behind.  No one had any idea that would happen.
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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 11:02:53 PM »

Strategic manouvering, pandering to knee-jerk politics and the opium and oil trade.

The war on terror is seeming more and more like a covert continuation of the cold war and western forces seem to jump at any pretext to base some military hardware within range of Russia, China or the Middle East.

The big incentive is the same as it always was, it comes down to "Who get's what?" The countries that morally manipulate public opinion to back their profiteering usually end up winning.

It's easy to say that nobody wants a world with the Taliban or Saddam Hussein but these people are the product of unrestrained human greed and ignorance.

Afghanistan is just another derailment in the train wreck of modern human history. Until we develop a higher minded sense of priorities this kind of thing will continue to happen. I just wonder how long we have left.
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