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Author Topic: Sexual abuse in the home  (Read 2679 times)

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The ScoundrelTopic starter

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Sexual abuse in the home
« on: February 04, 2009, 07:38:26 PM »

Fip wrote this earlier on

Quote
I have a friend who just found out her husband had been molesting her daughter since she was 5. If you can be married to someone for 10 years and not know who they are, how the eff is someone supposed to think they know someone on an internet forum?

This is something that has always got my back up.

I do not believe for one second that this sort of long lasting abuse can occur in a normal home envirionment without the other parent either ignoring what they know to be happening or being compliant, it's just un-fucking believable. How stupid are these people FFS?

If somebody, anybody messed with my kids you can bet your life i'd know about it.

These people should have all parental control stripped from them permanently at best and at worst should be held responsible for the abuse and go to jail where they belong.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2009, 08:04:41 PM »

I know it's unbelievable, but he did it 4 times from the time she was 5 - 11. Her daughter is now 14 and started really getting some emotional issues happening. When her mom took her to a therapist, the stepdad started wigging out and threatening her. She put it together finally and asked her daughter after he said something crazy one day that a dude doesn't say to a kid and her daughter said yes. She was baffled. The look in her eyes when she told me she never knew and felt guilty and said how their sex life was always normal was horrible. It's really fuckin sad. A sex offender knows how to hide it and threaten a child enough to learn to accept it and hide it too.

She said he daughter was like a zombie at the gyno office and just was numb when she told her all matter of fact like. Keeps telling her "It's no big deal mom I'm ok" but she's not. It's a mess but as soon as she found out, she got her kids out of there and they are all getting help and working through it and he's in jail right now.
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Ender

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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2009, 08:07:00 PM »

Absolutly. How in gods name can someone "not know" about their child being sexually abused in their own home for 10 years.

I simply can't understand.
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53V3N

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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2009, 08:09:42 PM »

A sex offender knows how to hide it and threaten a child enough to learn to accept it and hide it too.

Exactly. The victims are frightened into submission with any number of lies about what will happen if they tell.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2009, 08:10:31 PM »

Absolutly. How in gods name can someone "not know" about their child being sexually abused in their own home for 10 years.

I simply can't understand.
Easy to speculate and guess when those shoes aren't on your feet...

Go look up the numbers at how much this happens, it's astounding the amount of kids that get abused by one parent and the other doesn't have a damn clue.  My wife is a psychologist, and she has to deal with people who have gone thru this, the parents that didn't know are usually so torn up, and can't understand how they didn't know...some even turn to suicide.

Children are not prone to opening up and discussing things of this nature...FEAR is a powerful tool...
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 08:23:52 PM »

I still honestly can't understand it.

When a child goes through a traumatizing event there are ~always~ signs. Depression, self loathing, fear, anti social tendencies. I'm simply saying I don't understand how you couldn't notice that something was wrong with the child.

It makes me wonder if the parent was paying attention to the child at all. Maybe the parent that "didn't notice" has reason to feel ashamed and be wracked with guilt. Or maybe the other parent did realize something was wrong and simply didn't care, or shrugged it off as "growing pains" or some such nonsense.

I believe there's more to this story than "My daughter was abused for 10 years and I never realized".

Too simplistic.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 08:35:01 PM »

Quote
When a child goes through a traumatizing event there are ~always~ signs.
Granted sign will show, but the question then becomes WHEN they will show, which is dependent on the child in question.  One of the easiest things for a child to do is "forget" it happened completely.  Now you might say, no that's not possible, they can't forget.

Yes they can...

It's a very easy and common diagnosis when dealing with kids.  Negative actions, and painful situations are forced into the subconscious where they don't "remember" anything.  One of my wifes classmates experienced this exact thing...during her practice with a fellow student her subconscious memories came back to her and she all of a sudden remembered all the shit her mother had done to her, and she was 37 when it all came back.

Quote
Depression, self loathing, fear, anti social tendencies.
You're making these claims as if you have discussed this with every single person on the planet who has been abused.  While the idea that there are signs just readily and easy to notice, it's not always that easy in reality.

Quote
I'm simply saying I don't understand how you couldn't notice that something was wrong with the child.
Really?  I ask because the numbers of kids that realize many years later about their own personal abuse dictates it's not nearly as simple as you say it is.

Quote
I believe there's more to this story than "My daughter was abused for 10 years and I never realized".
While there my be more, don't assume that is the case...
   
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 08:39:49 PM »

Also, the signs may be there but ascertaining the root cause becomes difficult when the child lies about why they are behaving in a certain way.

If a parent otherwise has no reason to suspect their child is lying to them why would they seek answers elsewhere? Certainly the last place they will look is to their spouse as the cause if there is no reason to do so.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 09:02:20 PM »

Granted sign will show, but the question then becomes WHEN they will show, which is dependent on the child in question.  One of the easiest things for a child to do is "forget" it happened completely.  Now you might say, no that's not possible, they can't forget.

Yes they can...

I'm not speaking of the child I'm speaking of the parent. And just because a child "forgets" doesn't mean these signs will not show. People, especially children, are easy to read if you pay enough attention.

I really, honestly think that the parent in a case like this wasn't paying attention. I'm not demonizing the parent. In this day and age many are far more worried about careers than family. Spending far, far more time working than being with their offspring.

But to say they "didn't know", never had any reason to know. I just don't buy it. There's more to this story than that.

It's a very easy and common diagnosis when dealing with kids.  Negative actions, and painful situations are forced into the subconscious where they don't "remember" anything.  One of my wifes classmates experienced this exact thing...during her practice with a fellow student her subconscious memories came back to her and she all of a sudden remembered all the shit her mother had done to her, and she was 37 when it all came back.

Again, I'm not arguing that individuals can block painful memories, I'm saying that I don't buy this "I didn't notice" thing. If she didn't notice there was something wrong she either wasn't around, didn't care, or didn't care ~enough~.

You're making these claims as if you have discussed this with every single person on the planet who has been abused.  While the idea that there are signs just readily and easy to notice, it's not always that easy in reality.

No I'm not. I simply understand and read people easily and feel most people can do the same if only they paid closer attention.

Really?  I ask because the numbers of kids that realize many years later about their own personal abuse dictates it's not nearly as simple as you say it is. While there my be more, don't assume that is the case...

I don't understand why you continue to deflect from the subject. I have no issue with blocked memory. I have issue with the parent claiming she "didn't realize" and feel there is far more to this story than we are privy to. (Which is normally the case in a story like this one.) I don't see how you couldn't notice unless you weren't paying attention and if that's the case then you ~should~ feel guilty.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 09:09:40 PM »

Also, the signs may be there but ascertaining the root cause becomes difficult when the child lies about why they are behaving in a certain way.

If a parent otherwise has no reason to suspect their child is lying to them why would they seek answers elsewhere? Certainly the last place they will look is to their spouse as the cause if there is no reason to do so.

Now that makes more sence. I can see that to some extent. But then again, that is mearly speculation. I still think theres alot more to this story than what's been offered and I stand with my original opinion as stated. I don't understand how she could have "not noticed".

But at the same time, this is a bad debate topic really. I don't have the whole story and so everything becomes speculation on either side. "it coulda been this" "they coulda done that". He said she said.

I'll stick with my original comment and stop attempting to debate the undebateable.

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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 09:13:47 PM »

Quote
I'm not speaking of the child I'm speaking of the parent. And just because a child "forgets" doesn't mean these signs will not show.
WTF? is your maximum density shield on full blast?  if the memories are pushed to the subconscious, why would anything show?  It means exactly that, when the conscious mind knows nothing about it, there is nothing to remember, therefore there is nothing to have "signs" about.

Quote
Again, I'm not arguing that individuals can block painful memories, I'm saying that I don't buy this "I didn't notice" thing. If she didn't notice there was something wrong she either wasn't around, didn't care, or didn't care ~enough~.
That's fair, I just don't throw everyone into the same boat...usually when someone says something can't happen, or isn't likely...it happens.

Quote
I don't understand why you continue to deflect from the subject.
No, your problem is not knowing the subject to begin with.

Quote
I have no issue with blocked memory. I have issue with the parent claiming she "didn't realize" and feel there is far more to this story than we are privy to.
Since you keep going on about this magical "sign" that will appear when memories are blocked, please feel free to show your own documented accounts concerning this specific situation, and how the signs are still there.

Quote
(Which is normally the case in a story like this one.)
really?  care to show your foundation for such a claim?

Quote
I don't see how you couldn't notice unless you weren't paying attention and if that's the case then you ~should~ feel guilty.
What exactly is a parent, with no inkling in their respective mind of sexual abuse supposed to be seeing?  When a child has said NOTHING of the sort, or referenced anything remotely tied to sexual abuse.  If the child has blocked the memories, what exactly will they showing according to your theory?

I only ask because nothing you are stating makes any rational sense...

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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 09:19:08 PM »

Now that makes more sence. I can see that to some extent. But then again, that is mearly speculation. I still think theres alot more to this story than what's been offered and I stand with my original opinion as stated. I don't understand how she could have "not noticed".

But at the same time, this is a bad debate topic really. I don't have the whole story and so everything becomes speculation on either side. "it coulda been this" "they coulda done that". He said she said.

I'll stick with my original comment and stop attempting to debate the undebateable.

I'm not trying to get you to change your opinion. In part I agree with what you are saying. Yes, there usually are behavioral indicators but it is often difficult to track them down to the root cause as the victims (children) have usually been lead to believe that any number of bad things will happen to them and/or their loved ones if they tell the truth.

Only a fool marries someone they do not inherently trust so looking to one's spouse as the cause of trouble is usually the last thing on a person's mind.

Conversely, people are often blinded to a degree by the actions of their spouse for fear that the worst could in fact be the case.
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Fipronila

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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 09:22:21 PM »

In this case, the woman had no inkling at all. When her daughter did start acting out, she didn't know why - threatening to kill herself, wanting to be 'herself" wanting to get emancipated out of nowhere etc, at 14 - 3 years after the last incident she started acting out which is when she took her daughter to a psych dr. - as soon as she showed signs. Her daughter was not offering any info to the dr's who should have seen right? When a couple months into this whole situation, he was acting all crazy and threatened the daughter horribly in front of the mother was when she put it together and talked him into leaving to cool off and then asked her daughter.

What is really really sad is the support group they joined - there are boys and girls of all ages in the same boat and so so so many of them- it's horrible. It is everywhere. =(
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Ender

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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 10:45:06 PM »

WTF? is your maximum density shield on full blast?

Cute and pithy but truly ineffective in the long run as personal attacks in a true debate make you seem on the defensive.

But please, go on .....

if the memories are pushed to the subconscious, why would anything show?  It means exactly that, when the conscious mind knows nothing about it, there is nothing to remember, therefore there is nothing to have "signs" about.

Suppressed memory is not "gone" it's simply suppressed. Which is normally a conscious decision allowing a therapist to draw out these memories years after by asking the right questions. People seek treatment from therapists because they "know something is wrong just not ~what~ is wrong". Hence, you still have the same emotional and psychological turmoil. The person has simply made the choice to not deal with it at the moment.

That's fair, I just don't throw everyone into the same boat...usually when someone says something can't happen, or isn't likely...it happens.

I wasn't throwing everyone into the same boat. I simply feel there's more to this story than we are privy to. And if I bring up examples of societal norms, well, its simply the information most likely to be useful.

No, your problem is not knowing the subject to begin with.


Exactly my point. We don't know the whole story.

Since you keep going on about this magical "sign" that will appear when memories are blocked, please feel free to show your own documented accounts concerning this specific situation, and how the signs are still there.

Now we need documented accounts of opinions based on research and a few classes? I've never claimed to be expert on the subject. I simply claim that as the story stands I don't buy it.

(Which is normally the case in a story like this one.)

really?  care to show your foundation for such a claim?

Absolutely. The story was accounted from a person who is closely connected to the parent who claims to have not known what was going on. If you think she received, or repeated to us the entire story then you are truly naive so far as internet forums are concerned. Not an insult, merely an observation.

And next time you ask for documentation you should first provide your own. Asking me for documentation while not providing any of your own first shows you expect more from your opponent than you are willing to give yourself.

/Debate 101.

What exactly is a parent, with no inkling in their respective mind of sexual abuse supposed to be seeing?  When a child has said NOTHING of the sort, or referenced anything remotely tied to sexual abuse.  If the child has blocked the memories, what exactly will they showing according to your theory?

Depression, self loathing, fear, anti social tendencies ......... oh yes, I already stated this. See? You prove my point. People need to pay more attention.

I only ask because nothing you are stating makes any rational sense...

Huh?

Ok, let me get this straight. You feel that my opinion that emotional and psychological stress will show in a person no matter whether a memory is suppressed or not makes less sense than your claiming that suppressed memories are gone and have no effect on the person suppressing them?

Come on man. You can't really believe that. Suppressed memory is a defence mechanism used to shelve a memory until the person has the ability, or help, to deal with it.

That doesn't make it vanish. It's not amnesia or memory loss due to head trauma. Its still there and will still have an effect.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 11:10:30 PM »

Fip wrote this earlier on

This is something that has always got my back up.

I do not believe for one second that this sort of long lasting abuse can occur in a normal home envirionment without the other parent either ignoring what they know to be happening or being compliant, it's just un-fucking believable. How stupid are these people FFS?



Agreed

Just like all those Germans saying Konzentrationslager? Juden? Never heard of it.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 07:51:01 AM »

We'd be in the pub garden and I'd get my sweet angelic faced daughter to bowl over to a mate, point at him and shout "you're a paedophile aren't you"...it used to crack me the fuck and most of my mates saw the funny side but one girlfriend of a girlfriend piped up once "how can you teach a 7 year old to do that".

The thing is, no subject is taboo or unspoken about with my daughter, I want everything out in the open and for her to know that she can talk to me about anything without fear or embarrassment.

I get a feeling that when shit goes undiscovered for years its because people chain their children with their own personal hang ups.  If anyone ever touched my daughter she would instantly know that it was wrong and it should be talked about prior to me slowly gutting the guys testicles with my rusty fish knife.
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The ScoundrelTopic starter

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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 08:06:40 AM »

I get a feeling that when shit goes undiscovered for years its because people chain their children with their own personal hang ups.  If anyone ever touched my daughter she would instantly know that it was wrong and it should be talked about prior to me slowly gutting the guys testicles with my rusty fish knife.

That's exactly the point. People project thier own insecurities on to thier kids and thereby leave them vulnerable to this sort of thing.

Makes them pretty shitty parents IMO and maybe a spell in pokey would teach them what it's like to be frightened of thier own shadow and how to recognize abuse when it's hidden from clear view.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 10:31:04 AM »

We'd be in the pub garden and I'd get my sweet angelic faced daughter to bowl over to a mate, point at him and shout "you're a paedophile aren't you"...it used to crack me the fuck and most of my mates saw the funny side but one girlfriend of a girlfriend piped up once "how can you teach a 7 year old to do that".

The thing is, no subject is taboo or unspoken about with my daughter, I want everything out in the open and for her to know that she can talk to me about anything without fear or embarrassment.

I get a feeling that when shit goes undiscovered for years its because people chain their children with their own personal hang ups.  If anyone ever touched my daughter she would instantly know that it was wrong and it should be talked about prior to me slowly gutting the guys testicles with my rusty fish knife.


Ding Ding Ding

#1 answer

Children hide it because from the time they are old enough to know that it feels good to touch themselves they are told that such things are "bad" and "nasty", creating the sexual guilt complex that sets them up to be victims. How else do u think predators rack up so many victims.
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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 12:09:17 PM »

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Suppressed memory is not "gone" it's simply suppressed. Which is normally a conscious decision allowing a therapist to draw out these memories years after by asking the right questions. People seek treatment from therapists because they "know something is wrong just not ~what~ is wrong". Hence, you still have the same emotional and psychological turmoil. The person has simply made the choice to not deal with it at the moment.
Hence why I said, it is dependent on multiple factors.  The child, or person involved, the time frame as to which the suppressed memories actually resurface, and the "light bulb" which brings them back to the conscious mind.

Your argument is that it is clear, from any point and time to see the following:

Depression, self loathing, fear, anti social tendencies

When in reality it is not that simple, IF it was, the amount of kids and grown people who have rediscovered what happened to themselves years earlier would not be were it's at today.  Are there cases where those signs show?  Of course, no one is denying that, but you are in fact denying the entire possibility that a child can suppress their memories for years with no signs. 

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Now we need documented accounts of opinions based on research and a few classes? I've never claimed to be expert on the subject. I simply claim that as the story stands I don't buy it.
You are in fact stating that it is impossible for a child NOT to show signs regardless of the situation.  We are not just discussing this specific "story."  Could there be more to this story, yes you are right, there very well could.  But that could go either way, the parent might be ignorant to the signs(unaware of the issue)therefore they don't see them.  But the fact also remains that the child in question could still go on for all of those years without giving off any signs.

look...

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Her daughter is now 14 and started really getting some emotional issues happening.

from this time...

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but he did it 4 times from the time she was 5 - 11.

From those time frames, it is entirely possible that the child suppressed the memories and showed absolutely nothing in the form of a sign or a problem.  Once she hits 14, and for whatever reason, or catalyst, the signs then start to point to something that happened years before.

I'm not saying that these signs never show up, or are never there.  I'm saying that each scenario is quite different.  One child could get abused as Deb posted, and might have issue with telling their respective parent something is wrong.  Another child with a different mental state can hide that issue for many years if need be with nothing to show in the way of signs.

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That doesn't make it vanish. It's not amnesia or memory loss due to head trauma. Its still there and will still have an effect.
Wrong...

Dissociative Amnesia.

As defined by the DSM-IV section 300.12: Dissociative amnesia is characterized by an inability to recall important personal information, usually of a traumatic or stressful nature, that is too extensive to be explained by ordinary forgetfulness. A substantially traumatic event occurs of the type not normally likely to be forgotten. Voluntary access to memories about the event is unavailable for a significant period of years. After this passage of time, memories return that can be demonstrated to be accurate.

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Ok, let me get this straight. You feel that my opinion that emotional and psychological stress will show in a person no matter whether a memory is suppressed or not makes less sense than your claiming that suppressed memories are gone and have no effect on the person suppressing them?
That is correct Sir, Your opinion deals in absolutes.  That no child can suppress memories enough to not see signs, whereas I counter that there are children or adults, who experience a traumatic event and suppress the memories to the point of "they aren't there, it never happened" in their own mind.  This doesn't mean it is a definitive state, like I said it depends on the individual.

You give no room for other possibilities...




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Re: Sexual abuse in the home
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 01:00:04 PM »

I know it's hard to believe that a parent wouldn't be aware that something like this was going on, but I've heard of many instances where that is the case. As was previously stated in this thread by at least one person, when you are with someone you love and trust, and you love and trust that person enough to have them around your kids, they are the LAST person you would look at when the child starts acting "off." Because child sexual abuse is so inconceivable to most adults (the sexualization of children is not something that likely comes naturally to any healthy adult), a parent would probably tend to look for ANY other reason for odd behavior in their child.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have some personal experience with this issue. I think (this is strictly anecdotal now) that if the sexual abuse/rape of the child is a consistent and ongoing occurrence, it would probably be noticed and addressed by the parent much more quickly than if it's an occassional occurrence over a couple of years' time. Not that it's any less traumatic to the child - having something like that happen to you even ONCE is enough to fuck your wiring up permanently, I believe - it's just that the behaviors would probaby be more pronounced to the parent if it's happening daily, weekly or even monthly.

I hope I'm making myself clear in that I don't think that it has to be a daily occurrence for it to be horrifying. I also don't want to sound like I'm excusing those parents who for whatever reason know about it, or at least suspect it, and choose to ignore it. Those parents are just as grimy (moreso maybe) than the ones who are perpetrating the crime. It's just that I can see where a loving, concerned, involved parent might not be aware. Especially with an adolescent - they're moody and changeable anyway, and the parent will likely be told that their behaviors are hormonal or age-related.
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