Topic: Unions, good for America?

[thekid65]

I say nay. Care to dance, Angel?

[THE BRA1N]

They were good at the turn of the nineteenth century when capitalism was unchecked at the height of the industrial revolution.

Nowadays, theyre more about power, corruption and fucking the very companies they work for over rather than protecting workers while keeping the best interests of the company in mind. They are more responsible for shipping jobs to Mexico and oversees then they care to admit. Their time has come and gone.

[Angelica]

They were good at the turn of the nineteenth century when capitalism was unchecked at the height of the industrial revolution.

Nowadays, theyre more about power, corruption and fucking the very companies they work for over rather than protecting workers while keeping the best interests of the company in mind. They are more responsible for shipping jobs to Mexico and oversees then they care to admit. Their time has come and gone.

And who says that Capitalism has been put in its place?  They just found a better way to make money and not have to share it with their workers!

Yes, I give you the fact that "some" unions are greedy, and may have overreached, but when it comes down to negotiations, the owners cry poverty, tell the workers, either play by my rules or the work goes to Asia, Mexico (name your 3rd world country of choice here), and after getting their concessions, they still pull the plug.  Yet even when they do outsource, the prices stay the same for their products here..wtf?  The only ones that benefited from union busting was the company not the consumer. 

So why are you against Union's...because they hurt companies and impede progress...think again.

[THE BRA1N]

The short answer is to go back and compare working conditions in the US in the early 1900's compared to now. Not much different than they are in Vietnam or many other third world countries today.

Nowadays, unions are all about extorting as much money and benefits from companies as possible and lining their own pockets. They dont give a shit if they go on strike and cause a company to go bankrupt like what happened to Eastern Airlines. They apparently dont care about the precarious position that the automakers are in in Detroit. 'No concessions' was the rallying cry of the union leader.

Guess what, the number one objective for public companies is to make money. If that means they have to move their factory to Mexico to save costs because the unions are demaning $75/hr wage and benefits, then that's what they have to do.

If the employees dont like the wages they are receiving, they are free to work elsewhere. With the advent of labor laws, safety laws, fair wage laws, anti-trust laws, and child labor laws in the early 1900's, there are plenty of other safe companies around that provide jobs with fair wages, hours and working conditions.

Instead, what the unions do it basically engage in corporate extortion and put companies in holes like the automakers are in. They constantly try to squeeze as much money from them as they possibly can, to the point of crippling the companies' bottom line and forcing them to export jobs oversees.

Like I said, their time has passed. They are no longer useful or a good thing. The market forces themselves should govern how much a company is willing to pay to produce products and be competitive with other companies.

If a company is not paying enough or providing a quality working environment, then they will lose their workers to their competitors. If the two companies collude to pay the same wages, then they are violating the anti-trust laws.

There just isnt any constructive purpose for unions anymore. They need to pack their bags and head over to the Philippines and China. Maybe they can do some good there.

This is Kid's callout against you so I'll let him take it from here.

 

[Angelica]

Guess what, the number one objective for public companies is to make money. If that means they have to move their factory to Mexico to save costs because the unions are demaning $75/hr wage and benefits, then that's what they have to do.

What company are you talking about?  Because if this wage is true, they would be flocking to his company.

With the advent of labor laws, safety laws, fair wage laws, anti-trust laws, and child labor laws in the early 1900's, there are plenty of other safe companies around that provide jobs with fair wages, hours and working conditions.

And how do you think this got implemented?  Not because the companies wanted to safe guard their workers, this came about because the unions wanted to safe guard the workers.

Instead, what the unions do it basically engage in corporate extortion and put companies in holes like the automakers are in. They constantly try to squeeze as much money from them as they possibly can, to the point of crippling the companies' bottom line and forcing them to export jobs oversees.

A lot of the money that the automakers are paying to Unions go to retired employees..no one sees this, but yet the companies and "others" seem to harp on the "large amount the companies have to pay". 

Like I said, their time has passed. They are no longer useful or a good thing. The market forces themselves should govern how much a company is willing to pay to produce products and be competitive with other companies.

Sure, just as long as they aren't comparing reality with the cost of paying a 3rd world worker who doesn't have to live in the US and pay through the nose for the privilege .

There just isnt any constructive purpose for unions anymore. They need to pack their bags and head over to the Philippines and China. Maybe they can do some good there.

I disagree, as long as there are unscrupulous companies, and there are many, the workers need to be looked after.  Say what you will, Unions are the lesser of the two evils.

This is Kid's callout against you so I'll let him take it from here.

Kid doesn't care, he likes threesomes....

[Peter Perfect]

I notice that the debate header "Unions, good for America"  doesn't limit the location of unions.   Unions in low cost labour populations <edit - outside America> have got to be good for America as their presence and activity is more likely to result in pay parity with Americans, which would erode the savings to be made by relocating plants overseas.  More jobs stay in America.   Simple, end of debate


Unions still have their uses, the principles are still the same but have been abused.  Some employers will still take every inch of advantage that they can... your own illegal sweat shops are proof enough of that.

Deregulation of unions to make membership voluntary rather than compulsory and allowing individuals to negotiate their own employment contracts is the answer (the best workers get paid what they deserve and the lazy fuckers get less).  In the absence of formal negotiated rates, the previous mandatory minimum stays in force.  Oh yeah! you also need to make the unions liable for meaningful fines (and damages) in the event of illegal or unwarranted strike action.

Even workers dislike the unions because under union regulation there is less likelihood that the hardest workers are paid significantly more that the lazy ones (and that ain't good for individual self esteem, work ethic or productivity. 

Employers who are more exploitative will likely find that the majority of their workers will stick with the unions due to the employer not having given any of them meaningful recognition of their value by way of individual contracts.  In effect, unions retain some teeth where they need to, but get fucked off where they aren't needed or wanted.

It works well in countries that have done so. 

If you pull the teeth out of unions you will likely find that policing of worker safety will die in the arse and companies will be very slow to spend money to address safety issues.  Working conditions will suffer

If it was concluded that there was no place for unions in America, the pendulum would swing back pretty fast and the debate would be under way again.   The answer is somewhere in between.

[thekid65]

Sorry for the delay, was a bit busy the last couple of days.

As I've stated, it's time to do away with this out dated concept. When the original premise of labor unions was established (in America), around 150 years ago, they did serve a purpose in a country  that was in it's infancy in the industrial age. Keep in mind were talking about an era where the black man had no rights whatsoever, and women couldnt even vote. We've come a long way since then.

What was established in the 1850's to prevent child labor, 16 hour work days, unsafe working conditions, and encourage fair pay has now evolved into a system that is corrupt, rewards mediocrity, overpays workers, and puts a stranglehold on American businesses.

Like Vio mentioned in another thread, I'm sure we all know of someone who is in a labor union, and we wonder...."How in the fuck can this incompetent asshole keep a job, and make twice what I'm making"? I'll tell you how....it's almost impossible, and extremely expensive to fire these fuckers if they are in a union.

Union's are under the impression that their workers are owed a job by businesses. And not only that, but excellent benefits (see the definition of benefit, please...it's not something that is owed, it's an extra "perk").

All of this...drives up the cost of goods and services that we use. Everything, from the car you drive, to the light switch you turn on, to the water you run to wash your hands with, are costing more because some dude that can use a screwdriver, or turn a pipe wrench is making $50-$75/hour.

In todays economy, we simply cant afford it.

Pro-union folks would have you believe that if Unions are abolished, that all of the sudden we'd have rampant sweatshops in America, folks would be making minimum wage, and working 70 hours a week, with no time off, and no insurance. Why? Because the corporations are evil, and dont give a fuck about the American worker.

Not so I say. I live in Idaho, a "right to work state" We have but only a couple of unions here, and we're all doing just fine. Companies want to have good employees, they want dedicated, intelligent workers.. and they want to pay/treat them well. Why? Because a happy worker is a productive worker...and productive workers make the company money. We also have the threat that if we are lazy, incompetent, or generally dont give a fuck, that we could lose our job. Not so with the union workers.

Face it, the American public knows it's rights, and would not tolerate companies blatantly mistreating workers. Now sure, there are some crap companies around that do take advantage of folks, dont pay them a decent wage, and generally treat their employees like shit. Those companies are generally not very successful. In today's society, even Wal-mart has learned that you cant take advantage of the folks, or you'll get your ass sued.

The time has come for this fallacy to end.

[JimmyBlonde]

I get the impression from reading these posts that a lot of you seem to think that Unionism is a thing of the past?

Unionism ideally exists to protect the rights of workers who through collective action are able to achieve some control over their circumstances which, as individuals, would be impossible.

How is this concept outdated?

To me the answer is to make unions more accountable.

Circumventing the union process by the introduction of individual contracts between the employee/employer is only encouraging the same kind of exploitation and abuse of confidence from employers that we see from unions today. This contract system was tentatively introduced here a couple of years ago and it was mere months before the horror stories began to surface.

However, the idea of an individual contract being negotiated and amended with some union representation on the behalf of the individual has, in my opinon, some merit. If a satisfactory arrangement can be made in the base terms and conditions of employment and reviewed on a regular basis then this should enable employers to conduct their business without on-site interference and limit union powers to monitoring the adherence to contracts and re-negotiating if necessary.

Unionism is far from dead but it does need to evolve.