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Author Topic: Educational System - Out of date?  (Read 2439 times)

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FraggedTopic starter

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Educational System - Out of date?
« on: October 30, 2008, 09:41:19 PM »

So I had an interesting philosophical discussion today about America's educational system and the fact that it was planned around the idea of a factory assembly line, and besides that, with developments in technology, it's entirely out of date.

This archaic concept of the "three r's" and core knowledge is obsolete and has no purpose in the future of the human race, assuming we live long enough to see a future. Can anyone explain to me the purpose of teaching arithmetic through calculus in 12 years of school when you can pull out a pocket sized computer to do it for you? The current system wastes(yes, WASTES) 12 years of people's lives, assuming you don't attend college, with "old kingdom" teaching methods and topics that serve no purpose other than to bog down young minds with pointless knowledge that will serve little to no purpose in the working industry or real life.

The system needs a complete reformation to refocus its efforts on educating people in specialties and knowledge about the REAL WORLD and how it's changing and evolving daily, they need to be taught the dangers of global technology and the effects their actions have on the world around them, they do NOT need to be taught that 7 X 5 = 35.

I may not be in a position of power, but my proposition for an educational reformation is as simple as it is radical.

Abolish the current system. 12 years is ridiculous and unnecessary, and only serves to bleed enthusiasm out of the youth. By the time you hit Senior year in high school the last thing you want is more work in topics you couldn't care less about. Replace the current system with the following educational plan:

K-3rd grade will teach the current basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills. But that is where it ends. After 3rd grade, parents and their children need to discuss and decide what the child is interested in. It's imperative that this is done now since the easiest years for a child to intake knowledge is 9-12(Correct me if I'm wrong). The child needs to choose what general field(computer tech, science, history, etc.) they're most interested in, and categorized appropriately. At this point, education splinters into different trees from 4th grade onward. The number of years attending should be increased to 16 and the privatized college system abolished.

The key to this system is shifting from 12 years of core education to 4 years of core education followed by 12 years of specialized training, and all secondary and adult education centers moved to the public system.

This is a rough idea, it's obviously not easy to implement something like this, but in my honest opinion, we're teaching children to the past and present right now, and if we want the race to survive in any strong way, we need to start teaching to the future.
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2008, 09:56:35 PM »

Boy!? are you on crack?? We neeeed to talk about this theory of yours!

I LOVE, absolutely LOVE that you posted this topic. Excellent thinking. It is going to require a quick shower and a nice hot cup of coffee before I can expand on my thoughts surrounding it.
Of course you knew I would have an opinion, as with everything else...  :lmao:
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2008, 10:46:31 PM »

This archaic concept of the "three r's" and core knowledge is obsolete and has no purpose in the future of the human race, assuming we live long enough to see a future. Can anyone explain to me the purpose of teaching arithmetic through calculus in 12 years of school when you can pull out a pocket sized computer to do it for you?

Yeah, I'll explain.  I have a restaurant...which deals in money....and I hire people all the time with high school diplomas that don't know how to count FUCKING CHANGE!  CHANGE OUT OF A FUCKING DOLLAR!

Good thing I got a Teachers' Certificate, aye?  Since I have to do the job my tax dollar's should be doing. 

You fucking internet nerds think the world is so fucking complex, but civilization hasn't changed all that much.  Basic education and basic morals are still the bedrock of civility.

...and before you start with "you should buy each one of your employees a two-dollar hand calculator", it's getting near the X-mas season which means the quick-change artists come out.  They prey on idiots who can't count back money or balance a checkbook.

BASICS....without the basics you have a lazy mind and a lazy soul.
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2008, 10:50:09 PM »

btw, ask the Japs, the Indians and the Germans if they don't teach arithmetic.
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2008, 10:58:51 PM »

in theory i agree with a lot of that. however in practice i dont think it would work the way you might think it wold. first of all mathematics is very necessary in a lot of ways. some more obvious than others. such as torches comment. but there is also an underlying reason. the ability to do basic math on the fly doesnt just mean you can add subract etc. it also means you have basic problem solving skills. the ability to come to a conclusion using reason.

reading and writing are very important as well for obvious reasons. now, i do believe that the current system does have issues, but to stop teaching the basics in 2nd or 3rd grade? lol. in 3rd grade i was interested in transformers and being an astronaut, but somewhere along the way i discovered that i really didnt want to be an astronaut. now, if i had locked myself into an aerospace "specialist" program, then what happens when youre 15 and realize you had no idea what being an astronaut entailed? rather than doing away with the current system i think a better idea would be to require certain subjects like math reading etc, and then have electives that the child could choose depending on what interested them.

an obvious flaw with that is how would you recruit and retain the teachers base needed to supply the demand for specific knowledge? how can you predict what a child may want to take and how can you supply the materials and expertise required to teach such a varied array of subjects?

just a few of my thoughts. <shrug>
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2008, 12:04:33 AM »

I remember when I was a freshman in college sitting through a required algebra or calculus class thinking every day why the hell they were making me take that being that it was not going to have any use in my life. And sure enough, ever since then NOT ONCE have I had to sit down and figure out an algebraic problem or perform a calculus calculation in my life other than for school.

Needless to say, I feel strongly about Fragged's general thesis but I also completely agree with Torch in that we need to teach and learn basic math skills. People need to learn things which will help them get jobs and get ahead in life like making change for a dollar. Unless youre going into mathematics or a science field, all the calculus in the world wont help you make a dime.

It's bullshit that they make it a requirement over so many other basic things like teaching people about money and finance and basic economics. People think that supply and demand means that we can start drilling for oil off the Gulf Coast and the oil prices will come down overnight.

Or that we can cut taxes across the board and somehow still pay down the $10 trillion national debt which is eating up billions of dollars in interest payments and sucking it out of economy instead of going towards things like schools and bridges and curing diseases.

Supply side economics does not work! The worst deficits in the history of this country happened under the Reagan and W tax cuts for the rich. The debt did not go down, it went up by over 100%. It went down almost every year that Clinton was in office and as soon as W came in with his agenda, it ballooned back up to the record level where it is today.

Thus, everyone just nods when some flunky like McCain says that raising taxes on 5% of the population is a bad idea and compares it to Marxism instead of telling him what a total fucking pandering moron he is and why he hasnt mentioned anything about Palin doubling the taxes on oil companies in Alaska to give everyone resident there $3700 last year followed by another 2 grand each year.

The same stunted drones who clap for McCain when he talks about Obama and redistribution of wealth can't figure out that what Palin did is exactly what Marxist-socialist Hugo Chavez is doing in Venezuela and what Sugar Daddy McCain is talking about. 

I use to think that history was useless too but i was wrong. Knowledge of history is very important and has helped me a lot to understand the present and kept me from repeating the mistakes of the past. Now, I read it for fun. I wish I would have payed more attention to it in school.

Science is vital too. So many things in our every day life stems from it. But most important of all I think is language. So many people are functionally illiterate in this country that it's alarming. In most European countries people can speak fluently in 2 or 3 languages but here in the US, they can't even speak or write proper English and people like Twap go nuts over ballot initiates to make it English only which only hurts us stay competitive in the work place with those who speak more than one language.

If I have two more or less similarly qualified job applicants for a position and one speaks English only, the other speaks English and Spanish, who do you think is going to get the job?

Same thing with two people who only speak English where one of them can barely write and speaks like she's queen of the hood and the other speaks proper English. Who's going to land the health insurance benefits for their family? Teach them English and a second language!

I need more time to address this subject.
 
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FraggedTopic starter

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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2008, 12:52:43 AM »

Yeah, I'll explain.  I have a restaurant...which deals in money....and I hire people all the time with high school diplomas that don't know how to count FUCKING CHANGE!  CHANGE OUT OF A FUCKING DOLLAR!

I don't know about you guys but I learned how to count to 100 before I stepped on a yellow bus for the first time. 9 extra years of school won't help that idiot figure out what 100 minus 67 is.

The inherent flaw in modern education is that it emphasizes the wrong areas and demotes critical thinking in order to promote a flawed test system that forces pointless memorization and eats up valuable time and resources. I honestly have ZERO use for multitudes of trigonometry formulas if I'm not going into a career field that requires it's use.

Education needs to focus more on problem solving skills, encouraging critical thinking by forcing students of all ages to come up with their OWN solution instead of a concrete right or wrong philosophy, and increasing the amount of technological education. Students will gain more from learning how to PROPERLY use, maintain and repair a PC nowadays than they will learning how to bake muffins in home EC(WTF kind of stupid fucking class is this anyway?).

Oh, and by the way, I guarantee you that problem solving skills are in no way rooted in a specific course taught in any school system. These type of skills are learned through having problems presented to you and having you come up with solutions by logically weighing options and choosing the best one.

I have to agree with Bra1n that secondary languages are important as well, but I don't think including them in the school system the way they are now is the solution. I took 2 years of Spanish and I can't remember a damn sentence of it now. The most efficient way of teaching someone a new language is to have them use it on a daily basis for basic needs, I.E. study abroad. Unfortunately due to cost restraints this is often not an option for most people. So, we would have to keep the system the way it is now, but give students reason to continue using the language outside of the classroom.

The MAIN problem we face right now is a total lack of motivation in most students. Most do it because they believe it will lead to a better job. Here's my question: if forcing yourself through 12 years of school is supposed to get you a better job, why do you come out with almost zero practical knowledge? You will NEVER find a decent paying job on a high school diploma alone without some ungodly form of luck in today's world. That's a flaw. You should be able to take your high school diploma in "INSERT MAJOR HERE" and it should function at the very least on the level of an associates degree. College should be a furthering of your education, NOT the beginning of it, and certainly not required in order to support a single child family above poverty level, not at the price they charge for tuition nowadays.
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2008, 08:52:24 AM »

yikes! too much for me to dissect, i may have to break this down into multiple posts  :oh:

Quote
Can anyone explain to me the purpose of teaching arithmetic through calculus in 12 years of school when you can pull out a pocket sized computer to do it for you?

honey bee, you answered your own question with this statement.

Quote
Education needs to focus more on problem solving skills, encouraging critical thinking 


critical thinking doesn't always involve words and thoughts. it involves patterns and logic. was there ever a point where you figured out what ='d a complex y all by yourself and you thought, i got it!! i get it!! i understand! now, if i can only do that again...the more you worked at it, the easier it may have become, there is a skewed logic to repetition.
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2008, 09:06:48 AM »

I just pecked out a long ass reply to the rest of your main post and when I hit send, got a page error. When i hit 'back' my shit was gone and I didnt even hit refresh, SIGH. I dont have time to reiterate myself at the moment. I'll try later  ::)
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2008, 09:10:31 AM »

critical thinking doesn't always involve words and thoughts. it involves patterns and logic. was there ever a point where you figured out what ='d a complex y all by yourself and you thought, i got it!! i get it!! i understand! now, if i can only do that again...the more you worked at it, the easier it may have become, there is a skewed logic to repetition.

Oh, baby...you're making me horny!

/shoot dat knowledge
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2008, 10:17:12 AM »

I just pecked out a long ass reply to the rest of your main post and when I hit send, got a page error. When i hit 'back' my shit was gone and I didnt even hit refresh, SIGH. I dont have time to reiterate myself at the moment. I'll try later  ::)

That never fails with Firefox. I can go forward and then back 10 pages and the stuff I typed will still be there. In fact, I just did (not 10 but close). But if you prefer IE and type a long post, then highlight and ctrl+c it before hitting submit.
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2008, 10:34:35 AM »

Bra1n. HONEY.  Stop this directly.

Yes, we have calculators to do our math, but as HT pointed out, wtf is it with kids as old as 19 or 21 that can't make change? And I mean it happens to me at least once a day. At the grocery store, in restaurants, at 7-11 (I buy the exact same thing every morning - a 24 oz Obama cup of coffee and a pack of Newport 100's, which comes to $8.43 - I give the kid - AN AMERICAN KID - a $10, he rings it up and he still can't figure it out even though it says the amount due back right on the register display). Yeah there's spell check - but have you noticed a horrifying lack of grammatical sense in most of what you read on the net? Spell check doesn't check for usage.

Do you really believe that teaching LESS of the basics is going to be a good thing? We're turning into the dumbest country in the world.
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2008, 11:50:48 AM »

That never fails with Firefox. I can go forward and then back 10 pages and the stuff I typed will still be there. In fact, I just did (not 10 but close). But if you prefer IE and type a long post, then highlight and ctrl+c it before hitting submit.

i know, i know! i was using my mothers laptop out of laze and highly doubt installing FF would be helpful for her, as it is she sits and stares at the screen 5 minutes between clicks. poor thing  :vc:

i lost a karma point wtf?
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2008, 11:57:18 AM »

I met a girl, well more of a woman in her thirties the other day who was an acquaintance of my wife. During a brief chat she expressed an interest in coming to work for my company and left me her mobile number to contact her. I tried ringing last night and on getting no reply i sent a text. This morning i received a text back apologising for her not picking up and that also the delay in replying to my text was due to the fact that she can't read and had to wait for her husband to come home and read her the text and to reply for her. Maybe i just live in a cave or something but the idea of a mature human being in this society being illiterate shocked me to the core. How in hell do people survive in this world with no reading skills? Life must be horrifically difficult for her.

Also, what in hells name did she think she could do at my firm  :hammer:
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2008, 12:05:15 PM »

Make change?
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Jonkeybzaz

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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2008, 01:50:25 PM »

Fragged, your idea is flat out retarded. You want a kid to know their life's career by the time they're 10? Give me a break. I know people my age (20) who are still having a problem choosing a college major. 12 years learning general education (and while in high school, if you go to a good one, you can choose different focuses, dumbass) helps people learn more about what they like.

Oh, and just because you're too stupid to remember your Spanish classes doesn't mean everyone else has an attention span worn down by too much time in front of various screens.

you pasty fagit
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princess of pt

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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2008, 02:02:20 PM »



The system needs a complete reformation to refocus its efforts on educating people in specialties and knowledge about the REAL WORLD and how it's changing and evolving daily, they need to be taught the dangers of global technology and the effects their actions have on the world around them, they do NOT need to be taught that 7 X 5 = 35.

I may not be in a position of power, but my proposition for an educational reformation is as simple as it is radical.

Abolish the current system. 12 years is ridiculous and unnecessary, and only serves to bleed enthusiasm out of the youth. By the time you hit Senior year in high school the last thing you want is more work in topics you couldn't care less about. Replace the current system with the following educational plan:

K-3rd grade will teach the current basic reading, writing, and arithmetic skills. But that is where it ends. After 3rd grade, parents and their children need to discuss and decide what the child is interested in. It's imperative that this is done now since the easiest years for a child to intake knowledge is 9-12(Correct me if I'm wrong). The child needs to choose what general field(computer tech, science, history, etc.) they're most interested in, and categorized appropriately. At this point, education splinters into different trees from 4th grade onward. The number of years attending should be increased to 16 and the privatized college system abolished.

The key to this system is shifting from 12 years of core education to 4 years of core education followed by 12 years of specialized training, and all secondary and adult education centers moved to the public system.

This is a rough idea, it's obviously not easy to implement something like this, but in my honest opinion, we're teaching children to the past and present right now, and if we want the race to survive in any strong way, we need to start teaching to the future.

Some of your philosophy disturbs me. It sounds like it comes from a restless mind but you've put some serious thought into this and I embrace that tremendously.

My take goes like this; All minds are not created equal and should not be educated as such.

I feel that the educational process needs to start earlier at the formative age of 3. Most children are in "daycare" at that age, as most couples have to both work to support their families anyway. Establishing a public system that starts children out this young should actually benefit the families who are paying taxes as well as the children.

The school year should be reformatted to 12 months, with extended days and periodic vacations of 1 or two weeks. Having 10-12 weeks off straight is obviously not working, this too will help eliminate the need for childcare. Homework should be eliminated. Parents end up doing most of the work and home time should be just that, home time.

"Grades" should be converted to levels. Children should be allowed to work at their own pace and potential, not forced into conforming to a bureaucratic standard by age. As the child masters a core, they are moved to the next level of that core. Class size should be limited to a ratio of 10:2 students/teachers

Redesigning cores is dire. Reading, writing, and math are certainly important, but science and history are treated peripherally. They should be included in the core as should a second language. Learning a second language at the same time as learning a first broadens the understanding.

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princess of pt

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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2008, 02:08:40 PM »

I met a girl, well more of a woman in her thirties the other day who was an acquaintance of my wife. During a brief chat she expressed an interest in coming to work for my company and left me her mobile number to contact her. I tried ringing last night and on getting no reply i sent a text. This morning i received a text back apologising for her not picking up and that also the delay in replying to my text was due to the fact that she can't read and had to wait for her husband to come home and read her the text and to reply for her. Maybe i just live in a cave or something but the idea of a mature human being in this society being illiterate shocked me to the core. How in hell do people survive in this world with no reading skills? Life must be horrifically difficult for her.

Also, what in hells name did she think she could do at my firm  :hammer:

It still throws me for a loop whenever I encounter someone who can not read. How does that even happen?? Not being able to make change is bad enough, but reading?? How can you learn to speak yet not learn how to read?  :sad:
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Deviouz1

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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2008, 03:25:45 PM »

Quote
what in hells name did she think she could do at my firm

water closet stress relief? you could pay her 15 maybe 20 an hour, and massively improve morale for the troops. lol. doesnt even have to be hot if you set up a glory hole.

imho thats about the only thing an illiterate woman is good for.
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Re: Educational System - Out of date?
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2008, 04:30:24 PM »

Here's my idea on Education.



K-8 heavy on the basics. English, math, science, and history. Build a strong base of knowledge in children.

Before High School there should be a rigorous testing and interview process to find out what the kids have the ability and desire to do. Then they should be divided into different programs or possibly even separate schools to develop the kids for there future careers. Kids that score well in academics go on to a college prep program. Kids with aptitude in the arts and music get there own program. Kids with a aptitude for more hands on careers get a vocational school. All this should be done with an eye toward kids graduating capable of doing a job that is actually available in their area. Working with local employers and preplacement for job after graduating could go a long way to ensure this.

Now I'm not advocating the elimination of things such as PE, civics and economics in High school. Rather I'm saying design the program in each type of school to focus on preparing the kid for work and the real world. 

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