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Author Topic: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men  (Read 3779 times)

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Fipronila

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2008, 02:03:07 AM »

ah true I must be too much of a "City folk" to comprehend it lol.
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Update; 8-Year-old Planned Murder of Father and Friend
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2008, 08:29:07 AM »

Nothing "breaking" in this case per se, but the fact the boy had to reload the gun between shots and it indicating a sort of "premeditation", is disturbing in and of itself.

And you were right Brian; there seems to be some arbitrary Arizonian law about trying an 8 year old as an adult as mentioned in the news clip YT.   :sad:



The boy killed his father and his friend with a hunting rifle that needs reloading after every shot.

An eight-year-old boy from Arizona has been arrested a couple of days after he killed his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and his friend Timothy Romans, the New York Times reported. He was transferred from a psychiatric institution which conducted his psychological evaluation into juvenile prison on Monday. The boy admitted to the murders. There is no evidence of him being physically or mentally abused, so the motives of the murders have not been established. There is the possibility that the boy planned the murders.

The men were killed with a hunting rifle which needs to be reloaded after every shot.

The boy was familiar with guns because his father was a hunter and his step mother advised him to buy a gun and learn to use it.

At the time when the boy shot his father in the chest and the head, the other victim was talking to his wife on the terrace. The wife confirmed her husband had heard shots and muffled noises. Romans?s wife said her husband heard the boy calling out for him after the gun shots. The eight-year-old then shot him in the chest.

After he was arrested, the boy told the police that his father had beat him for bad grades in school the day before, although no signs of violence had been found on the boy.

From 1976 to 2005 a total of 62 cases were registered in which seven or eight year old children were arrested for murder, said Dr. Heide who analysed the FBI?s evidence. But in only two cases the children killed their own parents.


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Fipronila

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Re: Update; 8-Year-old Planned Murder of Father and Friend
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2008, 10:26:32 PM »

Wow. I don't know why I'm so interested in this. I think it's because my ex husband is happy to take my kids to teach them to shoot guns and I am completely against it. Just as a mother - accidents could happen and this sheds a whole other light on that. I think that kid either has some fucked up madula ooblangoda or whatever brain function, or he had some serious abuse happen to him.
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Re: Update; 8-Year-old Planned Murder of Father and Friend
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2008, 12:36:56 AM »

yeah, i'm with you. i totally dont agree with keeping a gun in the house around the kids. especially in this day and age of video games and graphically violent movies.

where there is a will, there is a way and even keeping ammunition separate from a firearm is not going to deter a curious or mixed up child from his or her directive.

i know my own kids are fucking RESOURCEFUL and will find whatever it is they set their little minds to finding and THEN some. grrr.

and you're right. this case is very intriguing. sad as well, but i'm quite interested in what the catalyst was for this behavior and how this will pan out judiciously. either way, my heart breaks for the little guy.  :sad:
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Re: Update; 8-Year-old Planned Murder of Father and Friend
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2008, 06:27:26 AM »

Let's face it, ladies, we all have smart kids - if they wanted us dead, they'd figure something out regardless of where we kept the ammo.  But that doesn't mean I'm going to make it easier for them by keeping it where they can find it.

Seriously, there's just no way I'd have guns in my house with the kids.  Like PopT and Fip said, you read too much about accidents happening, and most kids are both curious and inventive.

As far as this kid, I can see the press is already setting him up to be some kind of little monster, a spoiled brat who shot two people because he either didn't get his way or was punished and didn't like it. I find that really difficult to swallow: most children act out, but not at this level, not unless there's something really wrong.
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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2008, 01:33:17 PM »

Two things; Should I keep all of the discussion on 8 year old Arizona boy, limited to one thread or break off into a new thread when there is a new development? Which would be easier to follow?

and

I'm going to start calling the 8 year old Arizona boy "Romero". I'm sure his first name will come out soon enough, but if we're going to follow this case typing out 8 year old doesn't make sense, lol.

Anyway, here is an edited perspective from his mother. Naturally, it's the first motherly instinct saying he couldn't have done this.


Mother Baffled in Arizona Murders

SOLOMON MOORE


Published: Thursday, November 13, 2008 at 5:15 a.m.
Last Modified: Thursday, November 13, 2008 at 5:15 a.m.

ST. JOHNS, Ariz.- A week after the police charged an 8-year-old boy in the premeditated shooting deaths of his father and another man, the boy's mother, teachers and others who know him say they are no closer to understanding the roots of such a heinous crime.

"I don't believe he did this," said the mother, Erin Bloomfield, 26, who has shared custody of her son with his father, Vincent Romero, 29, since the couple divorced six years ago. She said she talked to the boy every week and visited an average of once a month, driving the 20 hours to St. Johns from her home in Mississippi.

Ms. Bloomfield had just returned from her latest visit when she got a call about the shooting and immediately returned to St. Johns.
Ms. Bloomfield described her son as a "normal boy" who played video games nonstop and doted on his new dog, a boxer. But in recent months, she said, he "seemed to be changing."

"There was a distance with me after a while," she said.

Whenever she spoke with her son, Ms. Bloomfield said, "I had to go through Tiffany," a reference to his stepmother, Tiffany Romero. "Tiffany would always sit there while he talked to me on the phone, and after a while, he became more and more distant."

She worried, she said, that the boy might be being abused although she had no proof.

Before Judge Michael P. Roca of Apache County Superior Court blocked anyone connected to the case from talking to the news media, Police Chief Roy Melnick of St. Johns said there was no evidence that the boy had been abused at home or in school.

A person answering the door at the Romero home on Tuesday said Tiffany Romero would not discuss the case because of Judge Roca's order.

Ms. Bloomfield said that after her son told her that his father and stepmother quarreled often, "I called Tiffany about that, and I think I got my son into trouble."

"The next time I talked to him about it," she added, "he said that Tiffany told him that 'what happens in this house stays in this house.' "

Ms. Bloomfield also said that her son was close to his father, and that the two regularly played softball and basketball, and went hiking and hunting together, sometimes joined by the other man who was killed, Timothy Romans, 39. Mr. Romans worked in construction with Mr. Romero and rented a room in the family house.

Ms. Bloomfield confirmed that after first seeking permission from their parish priest, her ex-husband recently bought their son a .22 rifle for hunting, a common pastime of young boys and their fathers in this town of about 4,000 people.

The boy "took his religious faith very seriously," said Sister Angelina Chavez, who has known him since he was a baby and taught his religious class every Monday at St. Johns Catholic Church. It is the church where the Romeros were married in September, and where hundreds of townspeople turned out for Mr. Romero?s funeral on Monday. "I just don't know what happened to him spiritually, emotionally," she said.

Chief Melnick has said only that the boy unexpectedly confessed to the killings during the second of two interviews on Nov. 5. Neither a lawyer nor a family member was present either time, the chief said, because the boy was being questioned as a witness, not a suspect.

Prosecutors charged the boy as an adult, and Ms. Bloomfield said she was terrified they would also attempt to try him as one. The boy is scheduled to undergo three psychological examinations in the coming weeks to determine whether that is possible.

A Phoenix defense lawyer, Karyn Klausner, who is a former municipal judge, said that for the boy to be tried as an adult, the tests must show that he is competent to understand the charges against him, has a basic understanding of the court process and is able to assist in his defense. In addition, prosecutors must prove that he cannot be rehabilitated by the time he turns 18 and leaves the juvenile justice system.

Ms. Klausner said she was appalled that the authorities were considering such an option. "There's no way on God's green earth that an 8-year-old should be subject to the adult system," she said.

Prosecutors also have what Ms. Klausner called the unlikely option of deciding that the boy is incompetent to stand trial, detaining him in a psychiatric facility until he is deemed competent, and then trying him as an adult.

In a separate case, a county judge in Bisbee, Ariz., on Monday denied a motion to try as an adult a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother. In that case, court mental health evaluators determined that the boy could be rehabilitated by the time he turned 18.

The sight of her young son being led into court in shackles on Monday was especially upsetting, Ms. Bloomfield said. His hands were bound to a security belt that had to be looped around his waist three times because of his small frame. The judge ordered the restraints removed.

"I blew some kisses at him and told him to put some in his pocket for later," the mother said. "Later he told me he needed more kisses to put in his pocket."

The next hearing, set for next Wednesday, is to focus on requests by defense lawyers for DNA, blood samples, ballistics and other forensics evidence from the crime scene.

Two of the boy's friends, Lucas Graf, 12, and Jude Chavez, 11, said they, too, were baffled as to how someone with whom they wrestled and swam in the scorching summer just past could have committed such a brutal act.

"He's a nice kid," Lucas said. "He's normal" 


http://www.theledger.com/article/20081113/ZNYT02/811133008?Title=Mother_Baffled_in_Arizona_Murders
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Persephone

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2008, 04:34:55 PM »

Shit...
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Fipronila

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2008, 10:54:39 PM »

I think one thread is better, but that's me.

Feckin H Christ I want to know what effing happened! LOL!
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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2008, 11:13:57 PM »

I think one thread is better, but that's me.

Feckin H Christ I want to know what effing happened! LOL!

i'll merge the threads and i NEED to know what happened too!!!! in a sick CSI sort of way  :confused:
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Angelica

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2008, 08:17:53 AM »

How horrible is this....why was an 8 year old taught about guns...

I think this goes much further than just: he killed his Dad and a friend
of his Dad.

The media claims he reloaded 4 times after shooting each victim..

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2008, 11:40:28 AM »

"i think i shot my dad, um cuz he was suffering, i think"



WTF?? that's a confession?? it sounds pretty weak to me. he said he THINKS uuuummmm, that he shot the other guy too.  :confused:



this is completely absurd. here they say he found the bodies after school and confessed after interrogation. i wonder if he even did it? 



Experts Doubt That 8-Year-Old?s Taped Confession in Double Killing Is Admissible

PHOENIX ? It is very unlikely that the videotaped confession of an 8-year-old Arizona boy who is charged with killing his father and another man will be admissible in court, legal and child-psychology experts say.

And, they say, contrary to the preference of the police force that investigated the case, it would be extremely unusual for the child to be tried as an adult.

The boy is charged with premeditated murder in the Nov. 5 shooting of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, a boarder in the Romeros? two-story home in St. Johns, a rural community of about 4,000 residents 170 miles east-northeast of Phoenix.

The case has attracted renewed international attention after prosecutors released to news organizations this week a videotape of an hourlong police interview with the boy.

On the video, the boy at first repeatedly denies firing the gun that killed his father and Mr. Romans. But after continued questioning, he eventually admits shooting each of them twice, saying he had found them already wounded.

?I think I shot him because I think he was suffering,? he says of his father.

A few minutes later, the boy says his stepmother, at his father?s request, had spanked him five times the day before the shootings. An officer then asks whether he was angry at his father the day the men were shot. ?The first time I was mad at him,? he says, ?but he was already shot, and I shot him again.?

Legal experts doubt that the confession will be admissible in court, because the police never told the boy of his right to silence and to a lawyer, and because he was interviewed without a parent or a lawyer present.

Prosecutors say the reason is that he was initially being interviewed as a victim and did not become a suspect until he gave contradictory statements during questioning.

But Dale Baich, an assistant federal public defender in Phoenix, said, ?At the point where the police decided the boy was no longer a victim and was a suspect, that?s when the questioning should have stopped.?

Judy Stinson, a clinical law professor at Arizona State University and former juvenile prosecutor, said the legal issue centered on when the interview became a ?custodial interrogation? from which he was not free to leave.

?The level of forcefulness used by the police includes the defendant?s perception about whether he is free to go and able to leave,? Ms. Stinson said. ?An 8-year-old child is not free to go.?

Any statements made by the child after the point at which the interview became a custodial interrogation would most likely be inadmissible in court, she said.

The lack of parental presence during the interview is not as critical a factor as the absence of a lawyer, said Steve Drizen of the Center on Wrongful Convictions at the Northwestern University School of Law.

?Parental representation does not adequately protect the child,? Mr. Drizen said. ?What is needed with children of this age is an attorney.?

Even if the boy had been read his rights and been free to leave, it is doubtful that his confession would stand up in court, given the susceptibility of young children to confessing crimes they did not commit, child psychologists said.

?Just because this 8-year-old said he shot the father and the other man gives us no great confidence that he really did,? said one leading expert in child confessions, Steve Ceci, professor of developmental psychology at Cornell. ?We can take most 8-year-olds off the street and get them to eventually admit they did this as well.?

The boy is being held in a juvenile detention center, though he is to spend Thanksgiving with his mother on a 48-hour furlough. The St. Johns police have urged prosecutors to try him as an adult, but no decision has been made.

Trying an 8-year-old as an adult would be unprecedented in modern jurisprudence, said Thomas Grisso, director of the law-psychiatry program at the University of Massachusetts Medical School.

?I have never heard of an 8-year-old being tried as an adult,? Dr. Grisso said. ?It would be more than extraordinary. It would be totally unique.?


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Fipronila

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2008, 12:25:57 PM »

Wow I didn't think that he came upon them wounded and wanted to end his dad's suffering. That would make sense for a kid who was taught to hunt. Jeez man that's so fuckin sad. It sounds like my just turned 9 year old talking.
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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2008, 06:36:27 PM »

yeah, whate was that business about??

"because he was suffering"

where did it come from? i just can't see an 8 year old making that up on the spot to justify why he murdered his father and another man. he must have thought they were suffering.

i must say, my kids weren't able to finagle a huge lie at that age. normally, they would be too scared of the repercussions of lying, especially to an officer. their first iterations were always somewhat the truth minus some facts and maybe a name change to protect themselves. the more i badgered them, the more time they would have to make their stories outlandish and unbelievable.
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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2008, 05:28:01 AM »

I have to err on the fact he had no "parental guidance and or legal counsel"..and if that shits good enough for hardcore criminals, well that should apply here too!.  And how many times does that fucking bitch have to restate her questions before he actually says what she wants to hear?...WTF!  Can you not belabor that fact anymore?
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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2008, 07:00:05 AM »

Seriously! It broke my heart hearing him answer those questions. Something is not adding up at all.
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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2008, 02:08:10 AM »

JINKIES!  :confused: where was grandma's statement a few weeks back when this all unfolded?
i'm still haunted by all the umm's and "i think"'s in the "confession" clips.

Boy's grandparents says he was capable of killings

 
 
FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (AP) - The grandparents of a young Arizona boy charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, the boy was.

In documents released Wednesday by the Apache County prosecutor's office, St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the Nov. 5 killings.

"I knew this would happen," she said. "They were too hard on (the boy). I knew (the boy) did it. He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it. If any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this it's (the boy)."

The boy's grandfather, Leroy Romero, echoed the statement and pushed his ex-wife to tell police more, but Melnick said she was overcome with emotion and he and another officer were asked to leave.

Police have said the boy planned and methodically carried out the killings of his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero and 39-year-old Timothy Romans, who rented a room in the family's two-story home in the small eastern Arizona community of St. Johns.

A status conference in the case is scheduled Dec. 8.

In a police interview released last week, the boy said he had been spanked five times the night before the shootings because he did not bring home some papers from school. And according to the latest documents, the boy told a state Child Protective Services worker that his 1,000th spanking would be his last.

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions," saying the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick had alluded to a possible number system earlier this month but did not discuss a motive.

The boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said Wednesday that the boy's grandmother likely was stressed and that he would interview her to see what she has to say.

Prosecutors released the documents as part of a public records request. The release of the 911 transcript, police reports and search warrants came on the day the boy was freed from juvenile detention to spend Thanksgiving with this biological mother, Eryn Bloomfield.

In the documents, officers describe a boy with a quiet demeanor, who initially was not considered a suspect in the case. In the police interview, the boy admitted to firing at least two shots at each of the men.

Documents show that Romero was shot four times, and Romans was shot six times.

In a report, St. Johns police officer Ramon Morales said he saw the boy in the Apache County courthouse on Nov. 7 - two days after the double homicide. Morales was sending a text message at the time, and the boy asked if he could look at Morales' cell phone.

"He then said 'My lawyer has a phone like that and my dad had one, too, but he's not going to need it, he's not coming back."' Morales wrote in the report.

Judge Michael Roca granted a 48-hour furlough to the boy last week during a hearing in Apache County over the objection of prosecutors. The boy is to return to custody by noon Friday or an arrest warrant will be issued for the boy and Bloomfield, Roca has said.

The boy's travels previously were restricted to St. Johns, but Roca issued an order Tuesday saying the boy could travel a 120-mile area in southern Apache County, court administrator Betty Smith said.

Roca has said stipulated that there be no guns, knives, video games or cable television in the home where the boy is staying.

"I think everything will be OK," Brewer said. "I think steps were taken to ensure that. I'm comfortable with his visit, and hopefully he'll have a good time out there."




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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2008, 02:20:02 AM »

extended footage of his "confession"

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2008, 08:38:17 AM »

Aw dang video is no longer available.  CLEARLY that kid is fucked in the head a lil bit there.
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princess of ptTopic starter

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2008, 09:48:10 AM »

Aw dang video is no longer available.  CLEARLY that kid is fucked in the head a lil bit there.


i dont know. the way the extended version sounds, it seems more like he happened onto a bad situation and his answers were led by the interviewing officers. heres another yt, it may be the same one but blocked because it was posted by abc so i'll post the separated link below.



http   ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AS9dl7d-kHk
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Fipronila

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Re: Boy, 8, Charged With Killing 2 Men
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2008, 10:00:27 PM »

That is so freaking sad. It's hard to tell if she meant to lead him into answering or not. He seemed surprised when she said he was shot with the same gun the whole time. I know he may have freakin killed his dad pre-meditated but after seeing that video I feel so bad for him at the same time. If only he never was taught how to use a freaking gun. So sad!
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