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Author Topic: Conciousness and Immortality  (Read 3149 times)

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ZeropointTopic starter

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Conciousness and Immortality
« on: February 09, 2014, 10:23:01 PM »

I have a hypothosis. Perhaps instead of conciousness being an emergant property of matter, REALITY is an emergant property of conciousness. And if so, perhaps that conciousness is eternal, or at least nearly so. I mean, I know that men like Richard Dawkins and Lawrence M. Krauss are fond of dismissing the idea of immortality (and I use "immortality" here in the sense of continuation of conciousness, completely ignoring any religious connection to same) on the grounds that there is no proof of an "afterlife", among other reasons. But that isn't quite true. There is a veritable MOUNTAIN of anecdotal evidence across multiple cultures, in the form of very similar near-death experiances despite radical cultural difffrences. Plus, there are analogues evident in nature. The Germ Line, for one example. Racial Memory/Genetic Memory is another (related). It isn't impossible. All matter is made of quarks bound by the Strong Nuclear Force into an atomic nucleus. The very foundation of matter, and therefore reality, is ITSELF near-immortal. Proton decay has been hypothosised but never witnessed. And don't even get me started on Dark Matter/Dark Energy. Or the Zero Point energy. Heh. Bring your A game, please...
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 09:13:50 AM »

Near death experiances are similar because of biological similarity not culture.

Racial/genetic memory is all sci-fi bullshit, a bit like DNA Homeopathy.

Your a fucking retard aint cha?
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ZeropointTopic starter

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 08:30:38 PM »

Near death experiances are similar because of biological similarity not culture.
Just biology, hmm? Despite NDE's that occur in hospitals where no biological activity is present? Sounds like Dawkins' arguement that belief in some type of immortality in just a coping mechanisim. Problem is, wouldn't a belief in personal immortality have been selected against long ago since people that believe that Allah will save them take many risks they wouldn't otherwise take? And as far as accounting for similarities, wouldn't that be a type of "genetic memory"?
Quote
Racial/genetic memory is all sci-fi bullshit, a bit like DNA Homeopathy.
Really? "Instinct" is bullshit? Doesn't exist? This is your "A" game? Explains alot, actually...
Quote
Your a fucking retard aint cha?
If I'm retarded, you've got bread crumbs and roaches between your ears...
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ZeropointTopic starter

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 09:00:36 PM »

Don't quite know how this happened (though I strongly suspect a buggy-assed version of Opera shares a large portion of the blame), but will one of you panel swinging chaps be kind enough to fix it? Grazie.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2014, 11:25:32 AM »

Look, you can't start a thread with a "Re:".

Even the Communists know that.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2014, 02:33:58 PM »

I have a hypothosis. Perhaps instead of conciousness being an emergant property of matter, REALITY is an emergant property of conciousness. And if so, perhaps that conciousness is eternal, or at least nearly so. I mean, I know that men like Richard Dawkins and Lawrence M. Krauss are fond of dismissing the idea of immortality (and I use "immortality" here in the sense of continuation of conciousness, completely ignoring any religious connection to same) on the grounds that there is no proof of an "afterlife", among other reasons. But that isn't quite true. There is a veritable MOUNTAIN of anecdotal evidence across multiple cultures, in the form of very similar near-death experiances despite radical cultural difffrences. Plus, there are analogues evident in nature. The Germ Line, for one example. Racial Memory/Genetic Memory is another (related). It isn't impossible. All matter is made of quarks bound by the Strong Nuclear Force into an atomic nucleus. The very foundation of matter, and therefore reality, is ITSELF near-immortal. Proton decay has been hypothosised but never witnessed. And don't even get me started on Dark Matter/Dark Energy. Or the Zero Point energy. Heh. Bring your A game, please...

Humans can't come back from the dead yet.

Dead means you're brain dead...

What those near death experiences people have is the same as one has when they dream.... They haven't fully died yet.... that is why it's possible for them to be recovered. Their brains didn't die yet their appearance and vital statistics appear dead.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 09:38:13 PM »

Humans can't come back from the dead yet.

Dead means you're brain dead...

What those near death experiences people have is the same as one has when they dream.... They haven't fully died yet.... that is why it's possible for them to be recovered. Their brains didn't die yet their appearance and vital statistics appear dead.
Now that argument would appear to negate any consideration of eternal life. If a person's notion of reality ceases upon brain death then that irrevocably kills any idea of an afterlife, therefore no heaven, no hell and no gods. Gee Iam glad for this revelation of Caskur's.

I can accept that all experience requires a functioning brain to appreciate it, to learn patterns of behaviour to deal with it and that the process is rooted entirely in electrochemical reactions that take place inside the cranium. Terminate that process and all perception and appreciation ceases. Should there be a way to preserve and restart the vital componentry then it is perfectly reasonable that consciousness and sentience might return, but just as a desktop computer cannot process any mathmatical operations with the power turned off, so too would the human brain be incapable of processing any stimuli where no synapses or neurons were active.

Common sense and easy to accept if you know how.

Taking the PC analogy one step further, I can relate it to any questions on matter and racial memory. Certain information is preprogrammed via the DNA that is inherited from the progenitor, it is not inherited from the matter itself. If the opposite were true then humans would be born with a shark's ability to swim, amoebae would know how to breathe, giraffes would be quoting Shakespeare at each other on the Savannah etc... obviously not needed information.

Whatever your brain learns over the course of its lifetime will be lost when its cells degrade back into their component atoms and molecules in much the same way as a hard drive will lose its data when you physically scrape the data from its internal platters. Reconstructing physical memory bank of a PC (bios, hdd, gpu etc) into something a Mac might use is not enough, you still need to write the data to it in such a way that it can be retrieved and understood. A brain is absolutely no different; it is a fragile organism that determines who we are and with a finite lifespan to develop that across. Once its gone, the raw materials go back into circulation for the next model, simple as that.
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ZeropointTopic starter

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 11:00:30 PM »

Sounds  good, NSF, and well put...but there are a few glaring problems. For one thing, the whole, "brain-as-biological-computer" analogy falls short in that it pre-supposes that conciousness is, in fact, rooted in the structure of the brain. A supposition that is far from settled. Roger Penrose, in his book, "Shadows of the Mind", argues that since every cell in your body right now is not the same one you were born with, i.e.  has been replaced by cell division and apoptosis, then conciousness must be rooted in the PATTERN of cells rather that the material that your brain is constructed from. Further, Johnjoe McFadden, in his book, "Quantum Evolution", envisions a conciousness FIELD, similar to the electrmagnetic field, witth the brain acting as a type of conducter. Then there is the problem of Coservation of Information, which is a central tennet of quantum mechanics. Lawerence M. Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing", argues that "nothing" in inherantly unstable and will always collapse into "something". Which is interesting since, as one of the most rabid atheists on the planet, Krauss completely dodges the question of why the "nothing" of death would be exempt from this rule. Personally, I'd describe myself as agnostic, but it bothers me that most atheists are just as dogmatic as the believers. Fact is, nobody knows for sure, and whatever the answer ends up being, it will be deeply profound. I guess maybe it would be truer to say that I want to believe, but think it's probably too good to be true...
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 11:19:47 PM »

Ok, I'll explain it in a way that even your tiny, malfunctioning conservative brain should be able to grasp...
I quoted Cookie in my original "Conciousness and Immortality" thread, and replied to his post. I clicked "post", and when the software returned me to the thread, it had turned my reply into a completely new thread. Either a software glitch on their end or mine, but a glitch either way. Hence, my request to fix it by combining this thread with the other one, which has, thus far, been ignored.
Savvy?
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 11:46:51 PM »

Now that argument would appear to negate any consideration of eternal life. If a person's notion of reality ceases upon brain death then that irrevocably kills any idea of an afterlife, therefore no heaven, no hell and no gods. Gee Iam glad for this revelation of Caskur's.


No it does not negate eternal life.

The Bible explains death... Death is the opposite of life as you know....

Right at the beginning the Bible explains what happens when people die... They return to dust and the memory of the person returns to God.

In the resurrection, (if it is true) ( and it's my hope and faith it is ) You get a new body with your old personality for want of a better expression.

Jesus was the first to be resurrected... all the people before him are still dust waiting to be resurrected. Only the 144,000 joint heirs of Christ get immortality in heaven.. and everyone else who aren't of the 144,000 joint heir with Christ class are still dust waiting for resurrection ON EARTH.

When God made humans, he meant for them to stay human. He meant for them to live forever on earth. Too bad Bra1n wouldn't let me encourage the thorough explaination of Genisis back when I felt like doing it via written media on this forum. 
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2014, 12:33:35 AM »

Sounds  good, NSF, and well put...but there are a few glaring problems. For one thing, the whole, "brain-as-biological-computer" analogy falls short in that it pre-supposes that conciousness is, in fact, rooted in the structure of the brain. A supposition that is far from settled. Roger Penrose, in his book, "Shadows of the Mind", argues that since every cell in your body right now is not the same one you were born with, i.e.  has been replaced by cell division and apoptosis, then conciousness must be rooted in the PATTERN of cells rather that the material that your brain is constructed from. Further, Johnjoe McFadden, in his book, "Quantum Evolution", envisions a conciousness FIELD, similar to the electrmagnetic field, witth the brain acting as a type of conducter. Then there is the problem of Coservation of Information, which is a central tennet of quantum mechanics. Lawerence M. Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing", argues that "nothing" in inherantly unstable and will always collapse into "something". Which is interesting since, as one of the most rabid atheists on the planet, Krauss completely dodges the question of why the "nothing" of death would be exempt from this rule. Personally, I'd describe myself as agnostic, but it bothers me that most atheists are just as dogmatic as the believers. Fact is, nobody knows for sure, and whatever the answer ends up being, it will be deeply profound. I guess maybe it would be truer to say that I want to believe, but think it's probably too good to be true...

You have to know Genesis and what was God's intention for Earth and people, what went wrong and what God did to fix it. We're in the middle of it being fixed. I'm deliberately using simple language because it IS simply explained.

The man you accidentally killed will be resurrected to Earth... YOU COULD be there with him... ya never know!
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caskur

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2014, 01:26:25 AM »

Ok, I'll explain it in a way that even your tiny, malfunctioning conservative brain should be able to grasp...
I quoted Cookie in my original "Conciousness and Immortality" thread, and replied to his post. I clicked "post", and when the software returned me to the thread, it had turned my reply into a completely new thread. Either a software glitch on their end or mine, but a glitch either way. Hence, my request to fix it by combining this thread with the other one, which has, thus far, been ignored.
Savvy?


This thread should be merged.

PM Bra1n about it!
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2014, 01:33:52 AM »

Sounds  good, NSF, and well put...but there are a few glaring problems. For one thing, the whole, "brain-as-biological-computer" analogy falls short in that it pre-supposes that conciousness is, in fact, rooted in the structure of the brain. A supposition that is far from settled. Roger Penrose, in his book, "Shadows of the Mind", argues that since every cell in your body right now is not the same one you were born with, i.e.  has been replaced by cell division and apoptosis, then conciousness must be rooted in the PATTERN of cells rather that the material that your brain is constructed from.
Actually I believe it was you that was arguing the materials had inherent consciousness whereas my dissertation concluded they do not because of the need for a contiguous maintenance of structural integrity, without which the basic programming, its interpretation and subsequent action is lost.

The basic atomic elements which make up DNA cannot in and of themselves create life, let alone consciousness... but arrange them into DNA in a particular sequence and you have the instruction set to create a particular cellular structure. Certain orderings of them are more desirable than others depending on environmental variables, natural selection of the ones more suited to a particular environment will naturally come about as the more successful examples will propagate more easily. It so happens that DNA will degrade more quickly without the life support system afforded it by cells which in turn serve a dual purpose of performing specific functions as a part of a greater whole. Come cells produce digestive juices, others the chambers required to digest material intake in. Still further variants ferry the converted proteins and other nutrients about the system to provide the many cellular variants energy to not only fulfill their functions, but repair themselves as well. Corrupt that instruction set and you have mutation. Corrupt it enough and it produces results that impair the functions required. Corrupt it by removing the chemical bonds at an atomic level and - surprise - the whole thing stops working entirely. But as long as that basic instruction set (inherited in many cases as an amalgam from two parents) survives through replications of itself then you have a functioning organism. 

Ahhh, but we still haven't determined where the consciousness resides. If we accept that consciousness requires a certain level of awareness then a quick trip to the head trauma ward of your favourite hospital ought to provide a few pointers as to where it resides. You might also consider that its possible to turn certain parts of that awareness off. Try it if you like, say by inserting a spork via the nasal cavity and scrambling the fuck out of a your frontal lobes. Iam sure the sudden and absolute lack of awareness emotionally should prove compelling enough evidence and you'll still be able to run the quarter mile afterwards, even if the appreciation of others leaves you cold. Or maybe you might prefer to hack off an appendage of your choice as others have done, wait until medical science has you up and moving about again and explain to the rest of us where that awareness of your phantom limb is coming from.

I think its safe to assume its not a telepathic connection with your big toe. :lol:

Further, Johnjoe McFadden, in his book, "Quantum Evolution", envisions a conciousness FIELD, similar to the electrmagnetic field, witth the brain acting as a type of conducter. Then there is the problem of Coservation of Information, which is a central tennet of quantum mechanics. Lawerence M. Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing", argues that "nothing" in inherantly unstable and will always collapse into "something". Which is interesting since, as one of the most rabid atheists on the planet, Krauss completely dodges the question of why the "nothing" of death would be exempt from this rule.
Assuming that life and death conforms to quantum rule of course, not the apparent linear expression. But I'll go you one better and ask that if we are to assume information must be conserved, then where is its natural "null point" to be taken from? I would imagine any meaningful measurement would not be made at the height of any organism's mental acuity but at a point well and truly before information was getting dumped into its carcass. Probably before its ancestors mutated out of the non-sentient soup that gave rise to our solar system. Maybe even as far back as the presumed "big bang" that brought it all about in the first place.

I seriously doubt that the entire history of the universe could reside imprinted in six different types of quarks, but at this stage they are the smallest building blocks known to exist and all information that is abundant now was arrived at as a result of their natural disposition to form larger structures, discarding the unsuccessful ones along the way. If its conservation of information we're about here, then wouldn't it be sensible to break every atomic particle back to it's original six quarks to even look like balancing the equation?

No it does not negate eternal life.
It fucking well does you wanker. Shut the fuck up before you contradict yourself again, stupid.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2014, 01:36:18 AM »

 :no:


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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2014, 01:38:01 AM »

It's probably time for me to put the cat amongst the pigeons!
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2014, 04:13:21 PM »

You have to know Genesis and what was God's intention for Earth and people, what went wrong and what God did to fix it. We're in the middle of it being fixed. I'm deliberately using simple language because it IS simply explained.

The man you accidentally killed will be resurrected to Earth... YOU COULD be there with him... ya never know!
I know Genesis front to back.
Phil Collins is no Peter Gabriel, but I find that his nasal harmonies bring me back to the 80's in a way that few singers do. And I just love that he chose to grow that little sprig of remaining hair out to like 8 inches long and smear it back towards his mullet rather than just accept his baldness and hack it all off.
Pure 80's, wot?
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2014, 04:21:22 PM »

 :applause:

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2014, 05:39:19 PM »

Ok, you verbose fucker, I couldn't properly quote your post, but I'll do my best...
Quote from: NSFW
ActuallyI believe it was you that was arguing the materials had inherent consciousness, whereas I...
No, what I was arguing was that given the unknowns regarding consciousness, it is entirely possible that consciousness gave rise to organized matter, rather than the other way around. And the possibility of Observer Created Reality supports that thesis. Granted, OCR has fallen out of favour in recent years, but phenomena such as the Placebo Effect, mind over matter, ect., says to me that perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty to dismiss it. Even your example of the "phantom pain" tends to support OCR.
Quote
The basic elements that make up DNA cannot in and of themselves create life let alone consciousness...
Now we're getting into murky waters. Exactly what gives rise to life is a question that stumps the best minds in biological science today. If we assume that life, at its core, is naught but a replication engine for the propigation of DNA, then why tthe need for conciousness at all? And as far as where conciousness resides, I'll grant that the brain is involved, but not necisssarily the origin. And all matter conforms to quantum rule. It must, at some level, as we are all made of quantum particles. It has even been suggested that there are macro manifestations of quantum effects.. And it has been proven that you cannot discount the observer when making a quantum measurement.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2014, 06:04:49 PM »

Oh, and as far as the "6 quarks" and Big Bang, size and scale are also Relative, as per General Relativity. And at the largest levels of the universe, galaxy clusters, the largest known coherent structures in the universe, appear as star-like points of light. Which would put you and me and earth itself in the sub-atomic realm. And how about all that Dark Matter? And then there's the Zero Point energy, powered by Virtual Particles. Who says a human soul can't reside in its entirety within a single atom? Matter is just a cold, stable form of energy. And given the implications of E=mc2, the energy contained in a single atom is enormous. Just ask the folks at Hiroshima and Nagasaki... 
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2014, 06:11:49 PM »

That was caused by splitting one atom causing a chain reaction.

just so you know! I'm sure you do!
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