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Author Topic: Conciousness and Immortality  (Read 3251 times)

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ZeropointTopic starter

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Conciousness and Immortality
« on: February 09, 2014, 10:23:01 PM »

I have a hypothosis. Perhaps instead of conciousness being an emergant property of matter, REALITY is an emergant property of conciousness. And if so, perhaps that conciousness is eternal, or at least nearly so. I mean, I know that men like Richard Dawkins and Lawrence M. Krauss are fond of dismissing the idea of immortality (and I use "immortality" here in the sense of continuation of conciousness, completely ignoring any religious connection to same) on the grounds that there is no proof of an "afterlife", among other reasons. But that isn't quite true. There is a veritable MOUNTAIN of anecdotal evidence across multiple cultures, in the form of very similar near-death experiances despite radical cultural difffrences. Plus, there are analogues evident in nature. The Germ Line, for one example. Racial Memory/Genetic Memory is another (related). It isn't impossible. All matter is made of quarks bound by the Strong Nuclear Force into an atomic nucleus. The very foundation of matter, and therefore reality, is ITSELF near-immortal. Proton decay has been hypothosised but never witnessed. And don't even get me started on Dark Matter/Dark Energy. Or the Zero Point energy. Heh. Bring your A game, please...
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2014, 09:13:50 AM »

Near death experiances are similar because of biological similarity not culture.

Racial/genetic memory is all sci-fi bullshit, a bit like DNA Homeopathy.

Your a fucking retard aint cha?
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ZeropointTopic starter

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 08:30:38 PM »

Near death experiances are similar because of biological similarity not culture.
Just biology, hmm? Despite NDE's that occur in hospitals where no biological activity is present? Sounds like Dawkins' arguement that belief in some type of immortality in just a coping mechanisim. Problem is, wouldn't a belief in personal immortality have been selected against long ago since people that believe that Allah will save them take many risks they wouldn't otherwise take? And as far as accounting for similarities, wouldn't that be a type of "genetic memory"?
Quote
Racial/genetic memory is all sci-fi bullshit, a bit like DNA Homeopathy.
Really? "Instinct" is bullshit? Doesn't exist? This is your "A" game? Explains alot, actually...
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 09:00:36 PM »

Don't quite know how this happened (though I strongly suspect a buggy-assed version of Opera shares a large portion of the blame), but will one of you panel swinging chaps be kind enough to fix it? Grazie.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2014, 11:25:32 AM »

Look, you can't start a thread with a "Re:".

Even the Communists know that.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2014, 02:33:58 PM »

I have a hypothosis. Perhaps instead of conciousness being an emergant property of matter, REALITY is an emergant property of conciousness. And if so, perhaps that conciousness is eternal, or at least nearly so. I mean, I know that men like Richard Dawkins and Lawrence M. Krauss are fond of dismissing the idea of immortality (and I use "immortality" here in the sense of continuation of conciousness, completely ignoring any religious connection to same) on the grounds that there is no proof of an "afterlife", among other reasons. But that isn't quite true. There is a veritable MOUNTAIN of anecdotal evidence across multiple cultures, in the form of very similar near-death experiances despite radical cultural difffrences. Plus, there are analogues evident in nature. The Germ Line, for one example. Racial Memory/Genetic Memory is another (related). It isn't impossible. All matter is made of quarks bound by the Strong Nuclear Force into an atomic nucleus. The very foundation of matter, and therefore reality, is ITSELF near-immortal. Proton decay has been hypothosised but never witnessed. And don't even get me started on Dark Matter/Dark Energy. Or the Zero Point energy. Heh. Bring your A game, please...

Humans can't come back from the dead yet.

Dead means you're brain dead...

What those near death experiences people have is the same as one has when they dream.... They haven't fully died yet.... that is why it's possible for them to be recovered. Their brains didn't die yet their appearance and vital statistics appear dead.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2014, 09:38:13 PM »

Humans can't come back from the dead yet.

Dead means you're brain dead...

What those near death experiences people have is the same as one has when they dream.... They haven't fully died yet.... that is why it's possible for them to be recovered. Their brains didn't die yet their appearance and vital statistics appear dead.
Now that argument would appear to negate any consideration of eternal life. If a person's notion of reality ceases upon brain death then that irrevocably kills any idea of an afterlife, therefore no heaven, no hell and no gods. Gee Iam glad for this revelation of Caskur's.

I can accept that all experience requires a functioning brain to appreciate it, to learn patterns of behaviour to deal with it and that the process is rooted entirely in electrochemical reactions that take place inside the cranium. Terminate that process and all perception and appreciation ceases. Should there be a way to preserve and restart the vital componentry then it is perfectly reasonable that consciousness and sentience might return, but just as a desktop computer cannot process any mathmatical operations with the power turned off, so too would the human brain be incapable of processing any stimuli where no synapses or neurons were active.

Common sense and easy to accept if you know how.

Taking the PC analogy one step further, I can relate it to any questions on matter and racial memory. Certain information is preprogrammed via the DNA that is inherited from the progenitor, it is not inherited from the matter itself. If the opposite were true then humans would be born with a shark's ability to swim, amoebae would know how to breathe, giraffes would be quoting Shakespeare at each other on the Savannah etc... obviously not needed information.

Whatever your brain learns over the course of its lifetime will be lost when its cells degrade back into their component atoms and molecules in much the same way as a hard drive will lose its data when you physically scrape the data from its internal platters. Reconstructing physical memory bank of a PC (bios, hdd, gpu etc) into something a Mac might use is not enough, you still need to write the data to it in such a way that it can be retrieved and understood. A brain is absolutely no different; it is a fragile organism that determines who we are and with a finite lifespan to develop that across. Once its gone, the raw materials go back into circulation for the next model, simple as that.
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ZeropointTopic starter

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2014, 11:00:30 PM »

Sounds  good, NSF, and well put...but there are a few glaring problems. For one thing, the whole, "brain-as-biological-computer" analogy falls short in that it pre-supposes that conciousness is, in fact, rooted in the structure of the brain. A supposition that is far from settled. Roger Penrose, in his book, "Shadows of the Mind", argues that since every cell in your body right now is not the same one you were born with, i.e.  has been replaced by cell division and apoptosis, then conciousness must be rooted in the PATTERN of cells rather that the material that your brain is constructed from. Further, Johnjoe McFadden, in his book, "Quantum Evolution", envisions a conciousness FIELD, similar to the electrmagnetic field, witth the brain acting as a type of conducter. Then there is the problem of Coservation of Information, which is a central tennet of quantum mechanics. Lawerence M. Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing", argues that "nothing" in inherantly unstable and will always collapse into "something". Which is interesting since, as one of the most rabid atheists on the planet, Krauss completely dodges the question of why the "nothing" of death would be exempt from this rule. Personally, I'd describe myself as agnostic, but it bothers me that most atheists are just as dogmatic as the believers. Fact is, nobody knows for sure, and whatever the answer ends up being, it will be deeply profound. I guess maybe it would be truer to say that I want to believe, but think it's probably too good to be true...
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2014, 11:19:47 PM »

Ok, I'll explain it in a way that even your tiny, malfunctioning conservative brain should be able to grasp...
I quoted Cookie in my original "Conciousness and Immortality" thread, and replied to his post. I clicked "post", and when the software returned me to the thread, it had turned my reply into a completely new thread. Either a software glitch on their end or mine, but a glitch either way. Hence, my request to fix it by combining this thread with the other one, which has, thus far, been ignored.
Savvy?
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2014, 11:46:51 PM »

Now that argument would appear to negate any consideration of eternal life. If a person's notion of reality ceases upon brain death then that irrevocably kills any idea of an afterlife, therefore no heaven, no hell and no gods. Gee Iam glad for this revelation of Caskur's.


No it does not negate eternal life.

The Bible explains death... Death is the opposite of life as you know....

Right at the beginning the Bible explains what happens when people die... They return to dust and the memory of the person returns to God.

In the resurrection, (if it is true) ( and it's my hope and faith it is ) You get a new body with your old personality for want of a better expression.

Jesus was the first to be resurrected... all the people before him are still dust waiting to be resurrected. Only the 144,000 joint heirs of Christ get immortality in heaven.. and everyone else who aren't of the 144,000 joint heir with Christ class are still dust waiting for resurrection ON EARTH.

When God made humans, he meant for them to stay human. He meant for them to live forever on earth. Too bad Bra1n wouldn't let me encourage the thorough explaination of Genisis back when I felt like doing it via written media on this forum. 
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I played the role of a 19 year old woman who Stephen was trying to shake down for nudes. When I showed him a randomly googled image of three teen girls on their spring break trip to Florida, me purportedly being one of them, he took my rebuff for his nude pic pleas and proceeded to ask for nudes of the other teen girls.

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2014, 12:33:35 AM »

Sounds  good, NSF, and well put...but there are a few glaring problems. For one thing, the whole, "brain-as-biological-computer" analogy falls short in that it pre-supposes that conciousness is, in fact, rooted in the structure of the brain. A supposition that is far from settled. Roger Penrose, in his book, "Shadows of the Mind", argues that since every cell in your body right now is not the same one you were born with, i.e.  has been replaced by cell division and apoptosis, then conciousness must be rooted in the PATTERN of cells rather that the material that your brain is constructed from. Further, Johnjoe McFadden, in his book, "Quantum Evolution", envisions a conciousness FIELD, similar to the electrmagnetic field, witth the brain acting as a type of conducter. Then there is the problem of Coservation of Information, which is a central tennet of quantum mechanics. Lawerence M. Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing", argues that "nothing" in inherantly unstable and will always collapse into "something". Which is interesting since, as one of the most rabid atheists on the planet, Krauss completely dodges the question of why the "nothing" of death would be exempt from this rule. Personally, I'd describe myself as agnostic, but it bothers me that most atheists are just as dogmatic as the believers. Fact is, nobody knows for sure, and whatever the answer ends up being, it will be deeply profound. I guess maybe it would be truer to say that I want to believe, but think it's probably too good to be true...

You have to know Genesis and what was God's intention for Earth and people, what went wrong and what God did to fix it. We're in the middle of it being fixed. I'm deliberately using simple language because it IS simply explained.

The man you accidentally killed will be resurrected to Earth... YOU COULD be there with him... ya never know!
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I played the role of a 19 year old woman who Stephen was trying to shake down for nudes. When I showed him a randomly googled image of three teen girls on their spring break trip to Florida, me purportedly being one of them, he took my rebuff for his nude pic pleas and proceeded to ask for nudes of the other teen girls.

He's a groomer....

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2014, 01:26:25 AM »

Ok, I'll explain it in a way that even your tiny, malfunctioning conservative brain should be able to grasp...
I quoted Cookie in my original "Conciousness and Immortality" thread, and replied to his post. I clicked "post", and when the software returned me to the thread, it had turned my reply into a completely new thread. Either a software glitch on their end or mine, but a glitch either way. Hence, my request to fix it by combining this thread with the other one, which has, thus far, been ignored.
Savvy?


This thread should be merged.

PM Bra1n about it!
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I played the role of a 19 year old woman who Stephen was trying to shake down for nudes. When I showed him a randomly googled image of three teen girls on their spring break trip to Florida, me purportedly being one of them, he took my rebuff for his nude pic pleas and proceeded to ask for nudes of the other teen girls.

He's a groomer....

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2014, 01:33:52 AM »

Sounds  good, NSF, and well put...but there are a few glaring problems. For one thing, the whole, "brain-as-biological-computer" analogy falls short in that it pre-supposes that conciousness is, in fact, rooted in the structure of the brain. A supposition that is far from settled. Roger Penrose, in his book, "Shadows of the Mind", argues that since every cell in your body right now is not the same one you were born with, i.e.  has been replaced by cell division and apoptosis, then conciousness must be rooted in the PATTERN of cells rather that the material that your brain is constructed from.
Actually I believe it was you that was arguing the materials had inherent consciousness whereas my dissertation concluded they do not because of the need for a contiguous maintenance of structural integrity, without which the basic programming, its interpretation and subsequent action is lost.

The basic atomic elements which make up DNA cannot in and of themselves create life, let alone consciousness... but arrange them into DNA in a particular sequence and you have the instruction set to create a particular cellular structure. Certain orderings of them are more desirable than others depending on environmental variables, natural selection of the ones more suited to a particular environment will naturally come about as the more successful examples will propagate more easily. It so happens that DNA will degrade more quickly without the life support system afforded it by cells which in turn serve a dual purpose of performing specific functions as a part of a greater whole. Come cells produce digestive juices, others the chambers required to digest material intake in. Still further variants ferry the converted proteins and other nutrients about the system to provide the many cellular variants energy to not only fulfill their functions, but repair themselves as well. Corrupt that instruction set and you have mutation. Corrupt it enough and it produces results that impair the functions required. Corrupt it by removing the chemical bonds at an atomic level and - surprise - the whole thing stops working entirely. But as long as that basic instruction set (inherited in many cases as an amalgam from two parents) survives through replications of itself then you have a functioning organism. 

Ahhh, but we still haven't determined where the consciousness resides. If we accept that consciousness requires a certain level of awareness then a quick trip to the head trauma ward of your favourite hospital ought to provide a few pointers as to where it resides. You might also consider that its possible to turn certain parts of that awareness off. Try it if you like, say by inserting a spork via the nasal cavity and scrambling the fuck out of a your frontal lobes. Iam sure the sudden and absolute lack of awareness emotionally should prove compelling enough evidence and you'll still be able to run the quarter mile afterwards, even if the appreciation of others leaves you cold. Or maybe you might prefer to hack off an appendage of your choice as others have done, wait until medical science has you up and moving about again and explain to the rest of us where that awareness of your phantom limb is coming from.

I think its safe to assume its not a telepathic connection with your big toe. :lol:

Further, Johnjoe McFadden, in his book, "Quantum Evolution", envisions a conciousness FIELD, similar to the electrmagnetic field, witth the brain acting as a type of conducter. Then there is the problem of Coservation of Information, which is a central tennet of quantum mechanics. Lawerence M. Krauss, in "A Universe from Nothing", argues that "nothing" in inherantly unstable and will always collapse into "something". Which is interesting since, as one of the most rabid atheists on the planet, Krauss completely dodges the question of why the "nothing" of death would be exempt from this rule.
Assuming that life and death conforms to quantum rule of course, not the apparent linear expression. But I'll go you one better and ask that if we are to assume information must be conserved, then where is its natural "null point" to be taken from? I would imagine any meaningful measurement would not be made at the height of any organism's mental acuity but at a point well and truly before information was getting dumped into its carcass. Probably before its ancestors mutated out of the non-sentient soup that gave rise to our solar system. Maybe even as far back as the presumed "big bang" that brought it all about in the first place.

I seriously doubt that the entire history of the universe could reside imprinted in six different types of quarks, but at this stage they are the smallest building blocks known to exist and all information that is abundant now was arrived at as a result of their natural disposition to form larger structures, discarding the unsuccessful ones along the way. If its conservation of information we're about here, then wouldn't it be sensible to break every atomic particle back to it's original six quarks to even look like balancing the equation?

No it does not negate eternal life.
It fucking well does you wanker. Shut the fuck up before you contradict yourself again, stupid.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2014, 01:36:18 AM »

 :no:


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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2014, 01:38:01 AM »

It's probably time for me to put the cat amongst the pigeons!
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2014, 04:13:21 PM »

You have to know Genesis and what was God's intention for Earth and people, what went wrong and what God did to fix it. We're in the middle of it being fixed. I'm deliberately using simple language because it IS simply explained.

The man you accidentally killed will be resurrected to Earth... YOU COULD be there with him... ya never know!
I know Genesis front to back.
Phil Collins is no Peter Gabriel, but I find that his nasal harmonies bring me back to the 80's in a way that few singers do. And I just love that he chose to grow that little sprig of remaining hair out to like 8 inches long and smear it back towards his mullet rather than just accept his baldness and hack it all off.
Pure 80's, wot?
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2014, 04:21:22 PM »

 :applause:

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2014, 05:39:19 PM »

Ok, you verbose fucker, I couldn't properly quote your post, but I'll do my best...
Quote from: NSFW
ActuallyI believe it was you that was arguing the materials had inherent consciousness, whereas I...
No, what I was arguing was that given the unknowns regarding consciousness, it is entirely possible that consciousness gave rise to organized matter, rather than the other way around. And the possibility of Observer Created Reality supports that thesis. Granted, OCR has fallen out of favour in recent years, but phenomena such as the Placebo Effect, mind over matter, ect., says to me that perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty to dismiss it. Even your example of the "phantom pain" tends to support OCR.
Quote
The basic elements that make up DNA cannot in and of themselves create life let alone consciousness...
Now we're getting into murky waters. Exactly what gives rise to life is a question that stumps the best minds in biological science today. If we assume that life, at its core, is naught but a replication engine for the propigation of DNA, then why tthe need for conciousness at all? And as far as where conciousness resides, I'll grant that the brain is involved, but not necisssarily the origin. And all matter conforms to quantum rule. It must, at some level, as we are all made of quantum particles. It has even been suggested that there are macro manifestations of quantum effects.. And it has been proven that you cannot discount the observer when making a quantum measurement.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2014, 06:04:49 PM »

Oh, and as far as the "6 quarks" and Big Bang, size and scale are also Relative, as per General Relativity. And at the largest levels of the universe, galaxy clusters, the largest known coherent structures in the universe, appear as star-like points of light. Which would put you and me and earth itself in the sub-atomic realm. And how about all that Dark Matter? And then there's the Zero Point energy, powered by Virtual Particles. Who says a human soul can't reside in its entirety within a single atom? Matter is just a cold, stable form of energy. And given the implications of E=mc2, the energy contained in a single atom is enormous. Just ask the folks at Hiroshima and Nagasaki... 
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2014, 06:11:49 PM »

That was caused by splitting one atom causing a chain reaction.

just so you know! I'm sure you do!
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2014, 11:22:54 PM »

Ok, you verbose fucker, I couldn't properly quote your post, but I'll do my best...
Gee, and here I was thinking I was giving you the Readers Digest version. Can't you find someone with an ass the size of Caskur's to smuggle you in an iPad or don't they breed them that big out your way? :lol:

No, what I was arguing was that given the unknowns regarding consciousness, it is entirely possible that consciousness gave rise to organized matter, rather than the other way around. And the possibility of Observer Created Reality supports that thesis. Granted, OCR has fallen out of favour in recent years, but phenomena such as the Placebo Effect, mind over matter, ect., says to me that perhaps we shouldn't be so hasty to dismiss it. Even your example of the "phantom pain" tends to support OCR.
How so? Phantom pain is largely regarded as the associated nerves and the brain "filling in the gaps" so to speak. We see analogues of the brain adapting to the near absence in stimuli when standing in a darkened room for long enough, or in an anechoic chamber for long enough. The body adjusts to the reduced substance until the background noise of the body becomes exceptionally noticeable. Nerves from a severed appendage are still reporting to the same pidgeonholes in the brain, it will interpret the noise as though the missing body part were still there, but whether I run over that big toe 5 miles away or on the sidewalk in front of you you would not feel it being crushed.

Now we're getting into murky waters. Exactly what gives rise to life is a question that stumps the best minds in biological science today. If we assume that life, at its core, is naught but a replication engine for the propigation of DNA, then why tthe need for conciousness at all?
As a survival mechanism of course. Consciousness is emergent, at its most basic it will drive an organism to feed, fuck and fight. A slightly more advanced consciousness would find more efficient and easy ways to feed and to fight and to fuck, it would therefore be doing more of it. The mutation survives, eventually another will replace it or build on it, consciousness grows. What we have now has been scientifically arrived at after 13 billion years of trial and error... and there you have the answer to the "what" which gave rise to life itself, also a large part of the "how" and the "why" I fancy.

And as far as where conciousness resides, I'll grant that the brain is involved, but not necisssarily the origin. And all matter conforms to quantum rule. It must, at some level, as we are all made of quantum particles.
The matter that goes to make up you and I however is not traveling at the speed of light (nowhere near it), even the nerve impulses are traveling significantly slower than light (even if we take into account the 100,000 years it takes for the photons emitted from the fusion taking place in the core of our own sun to reach its surface before completing the 93 million mile leg of its journey in 8½ minutes). So even if the matter we are made of has the potential for quantum behaviour, it sure as shit ain't exhibiting it.

It has even been suggested that there are macro manifestations of quantum effects. And it has been proven that you cannot discount the observer when making a quantum measurement.
Mmmmmm, but if you were to walk up to Erwin Schrödinger and tell him his cat was quite literally both alive and dead until the simple act of lifting a shoebox lid and taking a peek was sufficient to bring it out of a quantum state it clearly did not inhabit, he'd probably swap your bars and prison garb for padded walls and a straitjacket himself. Or you could knacker yourself in the gymnasium tomorrow and hobble about screaming to the inmates about quantum sexuality and how you're somehow both male and female until someone pulls your pants down to check if you split your scrotum open into a vagina or not. Something tells me you'll be occupying that particular quantum state for quite a while (and at the great mirth of your colleagues) until someone has the presence of mind to clip you over the ear and tell you to settle the fuck down.

Models and analogies only get us so far in science. Occam's razor generally prevails and the simplest explanations are bourne out as truth. No one single part of us is moving anywhere near (fas less at) the speed of light to any observer, therefore we cannot be said to exist in a quantum state.

Oh, and as far as the "6 quarks" and Big Bang, size and scale are also Relative, as per General Relativity.
Yes, and if I recall the theory correctly, it started with all the raw material of the universe inside a volume smaller than that of a pinhead. Perfectly feasible when you consider the actual composition of even something as dense as lead is largely empty space at the atomic level; remove it and you'll still have the same mass, though the volume could not even be considered yoctoscopic.


And at the largest levels of the universe, galaxy clusters, the largest known coherent structures in the universe, appear as star-like points of light. Which would put you and me and earth itself in the sub-atomic realm. And how about all that Dark Matter? And then there's the Zero Point energy, powered by Virtual Particles. Who says a human soul can't reside in its entirety within a single atom? Matter is just a cold, stable form of energy. And given the implications of E=mc2, the energy contained in a single atom is enormous. Just ask the folks at Hiroshima and Nagasaki... 
That firecracker? Please, singly they each clocked in under 5 kilos, significantly lighter than the organic and mineral life that while reduced to rubble and in some case vaporized did not achieve the runaway chain reaction that panicked scientists theorized they might.

But the survivors were horribly scarred at a genetic level which makes me wonder; over all the many many years since it was decided we even had souls, how it it that nobody's managed to mutate an organism that has many of them? Some oozing globular cancerous growth that deforms the side of someone's titty? That no-one has been able to produce even ONE instance of a soul cell, far less a soul atom even with 8 billion supposed examples to inspect on the planet Iam led squarely back to Occams Razor.

Souls are a figment of the human imagination.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2014, 03:01:26 AM »

Oh look, It's Quotey McQuotster quoting everybody like they didn't know what they said.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2014, 03:08:36 AM »

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2014, 10:04:03 PM »

Oh, and as far as the "6 quarks" and Big Bang, size and scale are also Relative, as per General Relativity. And at the largest levels of the universe, galaxy clusters, the largest known coherent structures in the universe, appear as star-like points of light. Which would put you and me and earth itself in the sub-atomic realm. And how about all that Dark Matter? And then there's the Zero Point energy, powered by Virtual Particles. Who says a human soul can't reside in its entirety within a single atom? Matter is just a cold, stable form of energy. And given the implications of E=mc2, the energy contained in a single atom is enormous. Just ask the folks at Hiroshima and Nagasaki...

Man is a "soul" .... a "soul" as rendered by religion is not some invisible being that floats off someones body when they die!

You have humans and supposedly there are angels, fallen Angels which are spirits...

But if you knew Genesis, you'd know that!
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2014, 09:04:57 PM »

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2014, 11:36:06 PM »

Quote from: NSFW
Gee, and here I was thinking I was giving you the Readers Digest version...
You are. It's just that when your browser starts coughing and spitting if you even THINK about heading out of the sub-2000 character slums, everything starts looking like a scroll-bomb.
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How so? Phantom Pain is largely regarded as the associated nerves and the brain "filling in the gaps"...
By creating pain for a limb that does not, in fact, exist, of course. No nerve endings, no pain. And yet, Phantom Pain can be excruciating. True enough, the amputee doesn't regrow ant appendages, but to the person madly clicking the morphine button, I imagine the difference is trivial.
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As a survival mechanism, of course. Consciousness is emergant. At its most basic, it will drive an organism to feed, fuck, and fight...
Ahhh...but in the beginning, (heh) all was single-celled organisims. Assuming consciousness to be an emergant proprety (unless we are to assume single celled organisims to be concious)that only arose with the advent of multicellular life, then the first rudimentery glimmers of conciousness would not have appeared until at least the Cambrian Explosion, roughly 550 million years ago, and several BILLION years after the first apperance of self replicating lifeforms. And as the first lifeforms almost certainly reproduced asexually, there wasn't a lot of fucking going on either. So the question remains: to what purpose, conciousness?.To aid in DNA propigation? Unnecessary. Reductio Ad Absurdum is fine for experiment, but as a reason for life in its miriad guises, falls short by light-years...I'll get bact to Schrodinger and the speed of matter...gotta run.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2014, 12:01:57 AM »

 Ok, the mental construct known as "Schrodingers Cat", used to illustrate, quantum superposition, may very well not actually exist in our frame of reference in both an ALIVE and DEAD state, but if you envoke the quantum multi verse scenario, suddenly things get a little muddy. Perhaps in "our" universe the cat is dead. But in a parallel universe, ol fluffy is playing come hither with the nearest ball of yarn.
More to follow...
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2014, 03:01:57 AM »

You are. It's just that when your browser starts coughing and spitting if you even THINK about heading out of the sub-2000 character slums, everything starts looking like a scroll-bomb.
That may well be, but you are dealing with a topic that doesn't exactly lend itself to brevity. What I gave you was the short version; I could have gone into far greater depth and did not, mindful of your circumstance.

By creating pain for a limb that does not, in fact, exist, of course. No nerve endings, no pain.
Except that the nerves do end, truncated at a point somewhere around the amputation. The logical knowledge of the limb being missing is clearly not rewriting the sensory perception; all those nerves that went to the amputated item are still there and functional, if truncated. The brain was used to those nerves reporting on a specific area of the body, ergo pain is being reported for a body part which no longer exists.

Ahhh...but in the beginning, (heh) all was single-celled organisims. Assuming consciousness to be an emergant proprety (unless we are to assume single celled organisims to be concious)that only arose with the advent of multicellular life, then the first rudimentery glimmers of conciousness would not have appeared until at least the Cambrian Explosion, roughly 550 million years ago, and several BILLION years after the first apperance of self replicating lifeforms. And as the first lifeforms almost certainly reproduced asexually, there wasn't a lot of fucking going on either. So the question remains: to what purpose, conciousness?.To aid in DNA propigation? Unnecessary. Reductio Ad Absurdum is fine for experiment, but as a reason for life in its miriad guises, falls short by light-years...
You could always prove it by experimentation. Start dragging your knuckles, drool uncontrollably, make demented moaning noises with your eyes crossed, walk out in front of speeding traffic etc...

Something tells me there won't be as many offers to propogate the Zeropoint gene pool as there might be if you showed some self awareness, but feel free to prove me wrong if you must.

Ok, the mental construct known as "Schrodingers Cat", used to illustrate, quantum superposition, may very well not actually exist in our frame of reference in both an ALIVE and DEAD state, but if you envoke the quantum multi verse scenario, suddenly things get a little muddy. Perhaps in "our" universe the cat is dead. But in a parallel universe, ol fluffy is playing come hither with the nearest ball of yarn.
If it doesn't exist within our frame of reference then why consider it in the first place? Maybe alternate universes exist, maybe not, but it occurs to me that only the things within our frame of reference have the capacity to be observed and perceived; the mitochondria in one cell of the ejaculate one wipes off their belly has about as much perception of its neighbours as it does of its distant (and no less inaccessible) relatives in the bacteria being farted out by a cow 20 miles away.

Just keeping it in perspective for ya. ;)
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2014, 11:09:08 PM »

Quote from: NSFW
The matter that goes to make up you and I is not traveling at the speed of light
Locally, that is apparently true. But as Einstein himself pointed out, if all objects are travelling at the same speed in a given frame of reference, any observer inside that system will observe that all objects within that system are not moving at all- they are standing still. This is a core principal of General Relativity, along with the warping of spacetime via gravity. But in higher-diminsional space, it is entirely possible that what we know as the bestObservational Limit of our universe could be moving at any speed, even superluminal speeds. Which has interesting implications for time and causality.
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That may well be, but you are dealing with a topic that doesn't exactly lend itself to brevity...
True, but iI just couldn't resist dragging you into it...
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Except that nerves do end, truncated at a point somewhere around the amputation...
True...The nerve-trunk DOES still exist, as does the brain that interperates tthe signals. The point is, the nerves of, say a hand, DO NOT. And yet, recent experiments have shown that a test subject who merely THINKS of moving a non-existant arm is able to effect control of a specially designed prosthetic. Sounds like "mind over matter" to me...
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If it doesn't exist within our frame of reference...
This is being a tad reductionist in that  many quantum effects do not exist "in our frame of reference" but are nevertheless recognized as empirically "real". Neutrinos, virtual particals, Dark Matter, Dark Energy...the list goes on and on. And macro quantum effects are evedent and observable in phenomana such as superconducting materals, in which the entangled state of the electrons in the materal cause them to function as a single entity...a single electron.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2014, 04:05:32 AM »

Locally, that is apparently true. But as Einstein himself pointed out, if all objects are travelling at the same speed in a given frame of reference, any observer inside that system will observe that all objects within that system are not moving at all- they are standing still. This is a core principal of General Relativity, along with the warping of spacetime via gravity. But in higher-diminsional space, it is entirely possible that what we know as the bestObservational Limit of our universe could be moving at any speed, even superluminal speeds. Which has interesting implications for time and causality.
Not really. If I moved away from you fast enough you wouldn't magically shoot back up inside your mothers cunt even if it were possible for me to keep an eye on you for long enough to see it happen. Everything that had ever had an effect on you might from my perspective to be seen to be preceding the cause but to every observer from your perspective that wouldn't make it so. Similarly I wouldn't be travelling into the past from my perspective either, but to your perspective I would be. Simple superluminal speeds are not sufficient to make effect precede cause, merely the appearance they have done so. That's how relativity works.

True, but iI just couldn't resist dragging you into it...
So you're a masochist who likes creating problems to complain about then... check. :lol:

True...The nerve-trunk DOES still exist, as does the brain that interperates tthe signals. The point is, the nerves of, say a hand, DO NOT. And yet, recent experiments have shown that a test subject who merely THINKS of moving a non-existant arm is able to effect control of a specially designed prosthetic. Sounds like "mind over matter" to me...
Welll duhhh, your hand is "matter" your mind is controlling it. Remove the hand and replace it with a prosthesis that may interpret the motor signals fed it by the truncated nerves and the mind will eventually learn to control it in place of the hand... but that is not really the point.

No, the point is that the phantom sensations of the removed body part are still being sensed not because they are magically communicating through some kind of ether, but because the nerves are still sending impulses to the brain which in turn is processing them. The example you've furnished is off point.

This is being a tad reductionist in that  many quantum effects do not exist "in our frame of reference" but are nevertheless recognized as empirically "real". Neutrinos, virtual particals, Dark Matter, Dark Energy...the list goes on and on. And macro quantum effects are evedent and observable in phenomana such as superconducting materals, in which the entangled state of the electrons in the materal cause them to function as a single entity...a single electron.
You are not a neutrino, nor are you a virtual particle, dark matter, dark energy, a superconducting material or even a spaghettified meat popsicle jizzing the contents of your nuts into a black hole. In short, you are not a piece of quantum matter any more than you are a blue giant or a supernova with a bad dose of the crabs.

Just in case you weren't sure.  :slap:
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2014, 03:11:12 PM »

Man is a "soul" .... a "soul" as rendered by religion is not some invisible being that floats off someones body when they die!

You have humans and supposedly there are angels, fallen Angels which are spirits...

But if you knew Genesis, you'd know that!

This is all mumbo jumbo that dolts like you are spoonfed because theres fuck all else between your ears.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2014, 02:13:00 PM »

This is all mumbo jumbo that dolts like you are spoonfed because theres fuck all else between your ears.

No it's not....

It's the first thing I learned watching the Seven Day Adventist program back in 1976 and later with the JWs reasoning on the scriptures.

False religion teaches otherwise...

I'd show you but then Bra1n gets in twist when religion is brought up... I think the nuns were cruel to him growing up and it turned him off, understandably, religion.

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2014, 11:15:15 PM »

Quote from: NSFW
Superluminal speeds are not sufficient to make effect precede cause. Merely the appearence they have done so. That's how Reletivity works.
Actually, you're wrong aboutthis. Although I suppose we could argue about the meaning of "appearance" in this context. However, you're right that we've strayed WAY off topic. It seems to me that every time someone says that something is impossible, they are proved not just wrong but spectacularly wrong. And yes, I realize that jumping from a plane without a parachute would be bad for your health. The point I was trying to make by use of the mind controling a prosthetic arm is that "mind over matter" isn't just a cleche'...it is an observable, measurable phenomenon, and as such, I think it's reasonable to ask- what is the limit, if any? There is a reason drug trials went from single, to double, to TRIPLE blind studies you know. They HAD to.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2014, 01:32:56 AM »

Actually, you're wrong about this. Although I suppose we could argue about the meaning of "appearance" in this context.

We could, we might also argue whether the student whose summary you've chosen to make your case is a recognized expert in his field and if not are there any such experts prepared to lend their name to his theory? Preferably one who isn't stuck out in the boondocks, Bawwstrayya isn't exactly known for their funding for the education sector after all.

The point I was trying to make by use of the mind controling a prosthetic arm is that "mind over matter" isn't just a cleche'...it is an observable, measurable phenomenon, and as such, I think it's reasonable to ask- what is the limit, if any?

And I think its reasonable to expect that if you sliced off your dick in the cell door tomorrow you might determine that limit to be dependent on whether or not the appendage was connected to you... by nerves or by a controlling apparatus of some sort. Or are you proposing that masturbating yourself vigorously enough... say with an anally inserted Toilet Duck.. might be sufficient for the power of your mind to promote an erection in the severed tissue?

Heh... "Voodoo dick my arse!" :lol:

There is a reason drug trials went from single, to double, to TRIPLE blind studies you know. They HAD to.


^

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2014, 04:26:23 AM »

Where is Zero btw?

Cavity search found his plastic wrapped mobi and 3 months in solitary?

Who knows?  :snack:
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2014, 04:39:31 AM »

Ah yes. . .the jailbird. I remember him from one of my missionary visits to Brawl Hall a couple of years ago.  I seem to recall describing in excruciating detail over about 6 or so paragraphs the dinner I had just enjoyed that evening at Charley's Steakhouse. . .

I think he called me a faggot, so I went ahead and posted some pics of me with my dick in the mouth of a blonde wannabe porn star for his prison fapping pleasure. 

Amen
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2014, 04:42:28 AM »

I seem to recall describing in excruciating detail over about 6 or so paragraphs 

Amen

T Bone?
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2014, 04:43:47 AM »

Of course.  You get the strip AND the filet! Best cut, as far as I'm concerned.

Amen
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2014, 04:54:03 AM »

FFS. Don't tell the resident Aussie whale.

We'll get a calorie count and its effects on her diabetes for fuckin months.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2014, 02:18:16 PM »

I think you're confusing life or death with a computer switch.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2014, 10:59:30 PM »

How does it go?

Oh yeahh. Shuddup Hoot.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2014, 11:39:09 AM »

Rib eye is better than T-bone you slop eating clothed primates.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2014, 07:57:11 AM »

Rib eye is better than T-bone you slop eating clothed primates.

I presume that was aimed at Atom who is absent somewhere in Utah?

Typical Southern scumbag. Only fights when thier opponent is AWOL  :slap:
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2014, 02:10:41 PM »

I presume that was aimed at Atom who is absent somewhere in Utah?

Typical Southern scumbag. Only fights when thier opponent is AWOL  :slap:

Its not a shoutbox you scouse pillock, posts will not fall of the page. They will be here when atom has finished worshipping Mr Smith.
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2014, 04:42:57 PM »

Its not a shoutbox you scouse pillock,

Now that's not very nice is it? Fuckin ill mannered Southerners!  :snack:
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ZeropointTopic starter

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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2015, 06:42:44 PM »

Further, Johnjoe McFadden, in his book, "Quantum Evolution", envisions a conciousness FIELD, similar to the electrmagnetic field, witth the brain acting as a type of conducter. 
Higgs field?
Anyone?
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Re: Conciousness and Immortality
« Reply #46 on: January 27, 2015, 08:59:08 PM »

Ah yes. . .the jailbird. I remember him from one of my missionary visits to Brawl Hall a couple of years ago.  I seem to recall describing in excruciating detail over about 6 or so paragraphs the dinner I had just enjoyed that evening at Charley's Steakhouse. . .

I think he called me a faggot, so I went ahead and posted some pics of me with my dick in the mouth of a blonde wannabe porn star for his prison fapping pleasure. 

Amen
You're STILL a faggot. :borat:
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