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rancidmilko

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2018, 09:45:07 AM »

I'll settle for a 1 micron activated carbon and resin filter. Full RO units are fiddly bastards to maintain and are really only beneficial for people with underlying medical conditions that require it (ie: kidney failure).


I'll never forget the first glass of unfiltered tap water I drank after switching to point of consumption filtering... slimy, gritty garbage that the city had deemed a-ok for human consumption. This was the exact same stuff I'd been drinking less than 12 months earlier, I simply hadn't noticed because like most other people, I was so used to how it tasted that I never noticed a taste at all... until I'd had the opportunity to consume and cook with water that had had a large amount of those impurities stripped out.


What a lot of consumers fail to realise is the body is effectively the "final filter" that the "glass of water" gets to go through. Arguments about whether you're pumping it from a well or drawing it through mile after mile of even the best maintained city-sponsored pipes, that stuff arriving at your tap is going to contain contaminants, only some of which will be expelled by your body. The rest will remain inside you. So if it's health concerns that are driving your choice of water supply, you're wasting your time. Neither a self sourced supply, nor one treated with additives designed to kill off any carbon based lifeforms that might happen to be wriggling about in the city's plumbing is ideal, but if it gives you a boner to alum your own heavily mineralised well rather than let the city decide what chemicals they're happy to complement the sludge they pipe into your homes then by all means... knock yourself out.


I prefer a certain level of filtration and dont mind spending a c-note a year for it. 1 micron filters knock out pretty much all of the particulates and a sizeable whack of the mineral content. Taste, odour and colour of the water is vastly improved. That's why I do it.

I mentioned the RO in case you're a clean freak who absolutely needs the cleanest water

Normal filtration systems don't remove some of the metals and additives in the water

But they remove around 90%, so your body should be more than ok in dealing with minor traces

I do think RO is recommended in places where there's heavy contamination by medications, though, like they're finding in places like California and NY

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your daily reality enema

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2018, 08:15:00 PM »

Actually, all the RO units I dealt with had one or more prefilters in them to strip out particulates and chlorine so that the RO membranes didn't get clogged, torn or degraded. Some of the units would employ an extra carbon block filter after the RO membrane to further improve taste, odour and colour. None of them used activated carbon and resin block filters however, a simple activated carbon block filter is usually enough, provided you're buying filters rated at 1 micron (nominal) or better. If you're looking at 90% removal of contaminants, a single chamber with an activated carbon block filter of that rating inside ought to be sufficient.

I don't rightly remember what the RO membranes stripped out that the activated carbon and resin blocks didn't catch (better flouride removal maybe?) but for my purposes it didn't (and doesn't) matter. I typically use a carbon/resin activated block with a 1 micron (absolute) rating in a single chamber housing, portability being a greater concern than longevity of the media as I like to travel. The supplier claims 99% or better removal of heavy metals and biological lovelies like cryptosporidium and giardia. Still not as clean and pristine as distilled water, true... though in theory even if I found myself in Flint Michigan or drinking the swill they pump out of the Everglades in Florida I'm assured of a better quality of water than most of the locals I might encounter.

Or the bogans who simply buy a gravity fed 5 micron Brita filter and swear up and down it's the best health choice they've ever made, little realising that they are still breathing suspended chlorine and fuck knows what else in the form of steam every time they take a hot shower.
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2018, 09:22:05 AM »

I'll settle for a 1 micron activated carbon and resin filter. Full RO units are fiddly bastards to maintain and are really only beneficial for people with underlying medical conditions that require it (ie: kidney failure).


I'll never forget the first glass of unfiltered tap water I drank after switching to point of consumption filtering... slimy, gritty garbage that the city had deemed a-ok for human consumption. This was the exact same stuff I'd been drinking less than 12 months earlier, I simply hadn't noticed because like most other people, I was so used to how it tasted that I never noticed a taste at all... until I'd had the opportunity to consume and cook with water that had had a large amount of those impurities stripped out.


What a lot of consumers fail to realise is the body is effectively the "final filter" that the "glass of water" gets to go through. Arguments about whether you're pumping it from a well or drawing it through mile after mile of even the best maintained city-sponsored pipes, that stuff arriving at your tap is going to contain contaminants, only some of which will be expelled by your body. The rest will remain inside you. So if it's health concerns that are driving your choice of water supply, you're wasting your time. Neither a self sourced supply, nor one treated with additives designed to kill off any carbon based lifeforms that might happen to be wriggling about in the city's plumbing is ideal, but if it gives you a boner to alum your own heavily mineralised well rather than let the city decide what chemicals they're happy to complement the sludge they pipe into your homes then by all means... knock yourself out.


I prefer a certain level of filtration and dont mind spending a c-note a year for it. 1 micron filters knock out pretty much all of the particulates and a sizeable whack of the mineral content. Taste, odour and colour of the water is vastly improved. That's why I do it.

I've got an RO/DI unit with a boost pump for my reef tank. Its pretty low maintenance. The tank evaporates 2 gallons per day and I havent had to change filters for over a year now. I did have to switch out all the line fittings to better ones right off the bat though.

As for the rest of your post, I agree 100%.
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 09:23:56 AM »



Don't even bother fool.

Clearly you know nothing about the Labour Party in Australia.

YUO might wanna re-write the wiki on it cause it reads EXACTLY like the NAZI party platform.

You're right though. I dont know jack shit about it other than what I've read about it.
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your daily reality enema

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2018, 12:47:32 PM »

...I havent had to change filters for over a year now...
I'd hate to see the state of your RO membranes if that's the case. You do know their longevity is dependent on regular replacement of the prefilters, no?


FYI: Australia's Labour Party is the nearest analogue they have to your Democrats in that both are purported to be dominated by left leaning centrists. The Liberal Party Feral keeps banging on about are more like your Republicans. Go figure...
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2018, 02:00:16 PM »

I'd hate to see the state of your RO membranes if that's the case. You do know their longevity is dependent on regular replacement of the prefilters, no?


FYI: Australia's Labour Party is the nearest analogue they have to your Democrats in that both are purported to be dominated by left leaning centrists. The Liberal Party Feral keeps banging on about are more like your Republicans. Go figure...

I bought a TDS meter with the setup. It monitors each stage so I can watch for creep. Our water is under 200ppm (its 130ppm as I remember) so its pretty clean. I'm going to change the prefilter and carbon block out next month when the new tank arrives cause I'll have 250 gallons to make at once. The system is rated at 75 gal/day but I think it would make about 150/day as configured. The other thing is, the boost a pump has a membrane flush feature that cleans the membrane during each cycle start up. The whole thing is pretty badass IMO. I think I've got about $400 total in it. Not sure though.
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your daily reality enema

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2018, 07:54:05 PM »

130ppm isn't bad at all, though still pretty high for an RO unit (their gazetted ideal is around 0-50ppm). 130ppm is in the range of carbon filtration which makes me question whether or not you mightn't have a split in the RO membrane. Where exactly are you testing for the dissolved solids?
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2018, 11:22:27 PM »

130ppm isn't bad at all, though still pretty high for an RO unit (their gazetted ideal is around 0-50ppm). 130ppm is in the range of carbon filtration which makes me question whether or not you mightn't have a split in the RO membrane. Where exactly are you testing for the dissolved solids?

The final is in the........port coming out of the DI cartridge. Had to go look. The first one is in the carbon block inlet, the second is in the membrane discharge. That one measures very close to zero when running. 003ppm as I remember. I've made several hundreds of gallons with these filters. I'd guess close to 600...maybe 700.
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your daily reality enema

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2018, 10:04:19 AM »

Membrane discharge? You mean the stuff it's supposed to contain the dissolved solids it's drawn out of the water?

Don't get me wrong, 700 gallons of clean water isn't bad for an outlay of $400, it represents a massive cost saving over simply buying bottled water off the shelf, especially since you can never be too sure where the store bought water is sourced from or what's been done to it. The only reason I'm persisting on this line of inquiry is because of the PPM of TDS figure you mentioned earlier - on the higher end of mountain spring water and only marginally better than ideal tap water figures. Your RO unit should (in theory at least) be capable of better and I suspect the possibility of a split in the membrane being the reason why it's not delivering a higher level of filtration.

All academic at this point of course, the filtration you're getting is better than what arrives at the tap in the Big Smoke but if it were me I'd be thinking about replacing the membrane along with the cartridge prefilters. I could be wrong of course, but if I were gunning for the results that RO provides, I'd be prepared to wear the cost of a replacement membrane even if the end result proved I was wrong in my suspicions in the first place.
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2018, 12:19:23 PM »

Membrane discharge? You mean the stuff it's supposed to contain the dissolved solids it's drawn out of the water?

Don't get me wrong, 700 gallons of clean water isn't bad for an outlay of $400, it represents a massive cost saving over simply buying bottled water off the shelf, especially since you can never be too sure where the store bought water is sourced from or what's been done to it. The only reason I'm persisting on this line of inquiry is because of the PPM of TDS figure you mentioned earlier - on the higher end of mountain spring water and only marginally better than ideal tap water figures. Your RO unit should (in theory at least) be capable of better and I suspect the possibility of a split in the membrane being the reason why it's not delivering a higher level of filtration.

All academic at this point of course, the filtration you're getting is better than what arrives at the tap in the Big Smoke but if it were me I'd be thinking about replacing the membrane along with the cartridge prefilters. I could be wrong of course, but if I were gunning for the results that RO provides, I'd be prepared to wear the cost of a replacement membrane even if the end result proved I was wrong in my suspicions in the first place.

My setup is about the middle of the road for most Reef Aquariums. Theres some who go full bore and get the $900 Spectra Pure unit with the boost pump, double DI, etc. but from what I see in my tank results, I think anything more would be way overkill. Plenty start out without a DI cartridge.

The water I drink BTW comes outta the fridge that just has a carbon filter. I aint gotta clue how pure that shit is. LOL! The fridge does have a keurig in it though!  :snick:

The probe on the membrane discharge is measuring the clean side of the membrane, not the waste water side. I cant remember what they said the membrane was good for, lifespan, but it was way more than what I've done with it so far. I'd expect 2 to 3 years, especially with the boost a pump and auto flush feature which is supposed to significantly prolong membrane life.

I went ahead and hooked it up just now and took some readings. Its been setting 1 week without making water. I fill up a 40 gal garbage can that sits in the fish room. I mis-spoke about our water being 130 ppm. Thats AFTER the sediment  AND the carbon block. The second probe is on the clean side of the membrane, and the third is on the discharge side of the DI cartridge as stated previously.

At first, I measured about 180 ppm, .003, and .006. After 10 min I had 129-131 ppm, .001, and .003. Finally, the DI went down to .001. Looks like the DI resin is exhausted and leaching. The membrane is rock solid though. From what I was seeing on the sediment and carbon side, I'm not too worried yet since 50ppm of creep after sitting for a week isnt surprising but I'll def. swap em out before I make water for the new tank.
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2018, 01:17:29 PM »

For anyone looking, I didnt get my RO setup from these guys, but their prices are pretty good.  https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/bulk-reverse-osmosis-filters-systems/reverse-osmosis-systems.html

I think they give deals on replacement parts/filters too if you buy their systems.

So I went ahead and replaced all the filters. I have had a whirlpool sediment and carbon block kit waiting. I also had a Kent Marine Hi-S DI filter....You got me curious. I did a bunch of flush cycles by plug/unplugging the booster pump. Now, the first sensor is measuring 109ppm confirming the sediment and carbon block were experiencing 21ppm creep. I'm at 5 and 4 on the membrane and the new DI side now. Hopefully that will settle down after a bit otherwise I may have trashed the membrane during the sediment, carbon block, and DI cartridge change.

Lots of air from changing the filters stirs things up so....
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your daily reality enema

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2018, 09:54:53 PM »

Like I said earlier, the setup can be fiddly, but if you don't mind putting in the time I'm not going to gainsay you. It's certainly more than I'd bother with for myself, I'm cool with the POC single chamber carbon/resin activated block filtration. I haven't run a TDS filter across it, but if I can taste the difference between it and regular tapwater then I know my outlay is not wasted.
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2018, 01:23:51 AM »

Like I said earlier, the setup can be fiddly, but if you don't mind putting in the time I'm not going to gainsay you. It's certainly more than I'd bother with for myself, I'm cool with the POC single chamber carbon/resin activated block filtration. I haven't run a TDS filter across it, but if I can taste the difference between it and regular tapwater then I know my outlay is not wasted.

Its definitely more than I'd bother for my own drinking usage. I bet that carbon filter in the fridge dont get to 130 ppm but the water tastes a lot different than from the faucet.

Ive got some finicky corals that will melt down or stop growing if certain dissolved metals build up in the tank from constant refilling the tank due to evap. Thats what the DI is for. Its got anion and cation resin that removes stuff that no RO membrane will remove completely. The RO membrane is rated at 99% filtration so 1 or 2 ppm is about right to expect out of the clean side.

You actually helped me. Getting curious about what the output would be with new filters made me discover I got ripped off on the DI cartridge I bought. It wasnt but about 1/2 full of resin and I'm not sure whats in there is any good. Its doing nothing to lower what the membrane wont catch. I went ahead and ordered a multi stage DI unit from bulk reef supply and a 1 micron carbon block to add after the 5 micron block. That should get the output way down below what the TDS meter reads.

I'd have been pissed if I found all this out while having to fill a new tank. It wouldnt have been the end of the world and I would have filled it anyway but I'd have been fucking with it for a couple of hours trying to figure it all out.
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your daily reality enema

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2018, 11:05:39 AM »

Well that's good, happy to have helped.


As for the carbon filter in your fridge, I'm guessing it's a carbon granule type similar to the ones you find in gravity fed filters. Those usually clock in around 5 microns, so taste/odour/colour along with larger particulates is really all it would be taking care of. Block filters in such a device are not unheard of, though they are kind of uncommon and generally fare better with a pump between the water reservoir and the spigot as a rule. Most people are content with the improved taste and it's not as if that minimum consideration isn't worthwhile at some level. Given that your requirements are significantly more stringent I can see a need for you going those extra few yards and with a bit of luck the new deionozer will give your corals a better environment to flourish in.


Kinda wondering if it's not worth your while to get a storage tank to catch all the DI runoff. If I recall, only 10% of the intake actually makes it through, the rest of the water is runoff and that seems kind of wasteful considering it's already been effectively microfiltered by the RO unit and already streets ahead of what the local water supply is provided you. Even if its just being used to water the garden or feed the weekly washing machine cycle, though you could probably find a lot more uses for it than that.
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2018, 03:14:26 PM »

Well that's good, happy to have helped.


As for the carbon filter in your fridge, I'm guessing it's a carbon granule type similar to the ones you find in gravity fed filters. Those usually clock in around 5 microns, so taste/odour/colour along with larger particulates is really all it would be taking care of. Block filters in such a device are not unheard of, though they are kind of uncommon and generally fare better with a pump between the water reservoir and the spigot as a rule. Most people are content with the improved taste and it's not as if that minimum consideration isn't worthwhile at some level. Given that your requirements are significantly more stringent I can see a need for you going those extra few yards and with a bit of luck the new deionozer will give your corals a better environment to flourish in.


Kinda wondering if it's not worth your while to get a storage tank to catch all the DI runoff. If I recall, only 10% of the intake actually makes it through, the rest of the water is runoff and that seems kind of wasteful considering it's already been effectively microfiltered by the RO unit and already streets ahead of what the local water supply is provided you. Even if its just being used to water the garden or feed the weekly washing machine cycle, though you could probably find a lot more uses for it than that.

I tried to look up details on the fridge filter but couldnt find if its granular or block. Its GE's newest design that they advertise to remove all sorts of stuff.

The new $900 Spectrapure unit has a 1:1 production. They've come a long way in the last 10 years in RO tech. Spectrapure's second from the top produces at 2:1 which is really good too and about what my cobbled system produces with the boost pump. Before I put the boost pump on mine, it wasted massive amounts. I bet my production before was 4 gal waste for 1 gal RO.

I probably should find a use for the waste. Right now it runs off the driveway when its not freezing.
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rancidmilko

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2018, 07:02:27 PM »



I probably should find a use for the waste. Right now it runs off the driveway when its not freezing.


Use the water for washing clothes or the car
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lokmarTopic starter

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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2018, 08:28:42 PM »


Use the water for washing clothes or the car

About the best I would do is use it for watering the landscaping out front. I'm way too lazy to invest in a barrel and pump system to use it for the wash machine. We have one of those front loaders. That computerized bastard cant be filled up like a top loader.
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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2018, 10:25:04 PM »

It's really not that difficult, a tank and an on demand water pump would do the trick. Twenty years ago I had the occasion to use such an arrangement when I was working on a farm out the back of Woop Woop when running utilities to the shack I and my then girlfriend were occupying wasn't an option. Ours was powered off a 12 volt car battery which we'd trickle charge off the diesel generator of an evening and it was more than sufficient to provide for showering and washing of clothes. You could easily swap the battery out for a powerpack of around 1 or 2 ampere and since the water you're using has already been carbon block filtered you're likely to find a decrease in silt and scale build up, thereby increasing the life of your washer.


Just a thought.
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Re: Liberal Water
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2018, 12:15:47 PM »

Ok, so I got the new triple DI unit, a new membrane, and added a 1 micron carbon block. It seems my old membrane was perfectly fine but WTH, I have a setup as good as most $1K setups for about $600 which includes the initial outlay for the original setup. The flow is: sediment filter-to-5micron carbon-to-1micron carbon (with tds#1 sensor)-to-R/O membrane (with TDIsensor #2 on the clean side).   Then it goes out to a second triple canister with Cation DI-to-Anion DI-to-mixed bed DI canisters.

The meters show 93ppm after the 1 micron block, 005ppm after the R/O membrane (this is a new 75GPD DOW membrane), and 000ppm at the DI output. Hopefully membrane performance will reach the same 001ppm-002ppm that my last membrane was working at after a couple hundred gallons. The triple stage DI is overkill but the way its arranged, I doubt I have to change the Anion and mixed bed for 4-5 years. The first Cation will probably exhaust in a year or two. Adding the second carbon block lowered my first sensor readings to 96ppm which will further the membrane life.

Membrane rejection is only 94ish% which aint the 98% advertised and will consume more DI resin unless its performance increases through use. I might go back to the old membrane if it doesnt but I'm betting it will.
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