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Author Topic: Blagojevich, is he "guilty" and should he be denied access to classified info?  (Read 1233 times)

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princess of ptTopic starter

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I'm sure you're all well aware of this smarmy fucker and his trying to sell Obama's senate seat. I believe I may have even started another thread about him when the initial hoopla broke, but after watching this creep for days and now after learning his privileges were revoked by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security before he has been found guilty of the charges against him, I'm beginning to feel as if the gun has been seriously jumped.


http://www.suntimes.com/news/1360091,blagojevich-department-of-homeland-security-010309.article

Look at the last sentence of the first paragraph. He was TRYING to sell the seat. No doubt this dick is as crooked as they come, but since when is TRYING to do something the same as actually doing it?

By no means do I think this man should be governor of his state, but I find trying him in the public and revoking his privileges pertaining to sensitive information that is certainly applicable to him performing his job, is almost equally corrupt as his own behavior.

Since when is talking about something a crime? No money exchanged hands. If he ultimately appointed Jarrett to the seat upon the recommendation of the Obama camp and seeing as he has chosen someone else for the chair without any "pay for play" that we know of, all he could really be guilty of was talking shit. Should that be a prosecutable offense?
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Since when is talking about something a crime?

Well i don't know about the US but over here

Quote
Offence: Statutory Conspiracy. Criminal Law Act 1977
Statutory conspiracy is defined by section 1 of the criminal law act 1977

Under section 1(1) if a person agrees with any other person or persons that a course of conduct shall be pursued which, if the agreement is carried out in accordance with their
intentions, either -
(a) will necessarily amount to or involve the commission of any offence or offences by one or more of the parties to the agreement, or
(b) would do so but for the existence of facts which render the commission of the offence or any of the offences impossible,

He is guilty of conspiracy to commit the offence or offences in question.

Accordingly, it is an offence to agree to commit any criminal offence even one which is tryable only summarily. However, by section 4 a conspiracy to commit a summary only offence can only be prosecuted by or with the consent of the director of public prosecutions.

It certainly is an offence to talk about a crime even if the crime doesn't occur, which i think is pretty fucked up anyway.
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The gun has been jumped.  He hasn't even been indicted.  I'm all for stomping out corruption but no one sought to unseat crooked CEO's and CFO's without indictments.  Even that Congressman in Louisiana who had money stashed in his freezer got more of a pass....and he was indicted. 
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Its called intent insome cases.
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Its called intent insome cases.

We're not talking about intent...we're talking about the threshold for penalizing someone who hasn't been convicted.  IMO, his intent lead to his arrest....OK, I'll go with that.  But apparently, the evidence isn't enough to put in front of a Grand Jury and seek an indictment...Not OK!  Especially, when there are white collar criminals fleecing the country and the FBI and Federal Attorney's sit on their hands.
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We're not talking about intent...we're talking about the threshold for penalizing someone who hasn't been convicted.  IMO, his intent lead to his arrest....OK, I'll go with that.  But apparently, the evidence isn't enough to put in front of a Grand Jury and seek an indictment...Not OK!  Especially, when there are white collar criminals fleecing the country and the FBI and Federal Attorney's sit on their hands.

those are my sentiments exactly. on top of the coddled white collar criminals we've inadvertently pandered to with our tax dollars, we have a president AND a veep who lied through their teeth in order to fleece the country out of billions, if not trillions of dollars for an unnecessary war. theyre leaving office without even a slap on the wrist.

blagojevich could easily turn and say he was only smack talking to deter interest in the seat for candidates he thought were unfit. another thing i'm curious about is his phone calls being recorded and monitored without his knowledge. is that even legal? i know when i call most companies now a day, i always get a recorded message that forewarns me that my call may be monitored or recorded for customer service purposes. is that right to privacy not extended to politicians?
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Well i don't know about the US but over here

It certainly is an offence to talk about a crime even if the crime doesn't occur, which i think is pretty fucked up anyway.

wow! if i were you i wouldnt mention anything about wanting to shag the queens corgies again, during our next phone call.  :vc:
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the evidence isn't enough to put in front of a Grand Jury and seek an indictment...

Am i missing something here or do things just work differently over there? In the first post it states that the guy had been charged with these offences, what's the difference?

Quote
wow! if i were you i wouldn't mention anything about wanting to shag the queens corgies again, during our next phone call. 

I think for it to be a problem you'd have to agree with me that it was a good idea so as long as you remain my conscience we'll be ok sugar.  :grin:
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princess of ptTopic starter

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Am i missing something here or do things just work differently over there? In the first post it states that the guy had been charged with these offences, what's the difference?


innards are more my specialty, legalese not so much. but presumably, in an effort to try and block his appointing someone to obamas senate seat, blagojevich was arrested for a "criminal complaint" december 9th on "federal corruption charges" which include "conspiring to defraud the citizens of Illinois of their right to his honest services, as well as conspiring to obtain money and property by fraud, in violation of the mail and wire fraud statutes" after an ongoing investigation that began in 2003! lmao, it makes you wonder who is actually the corrupt one if after 6 YEARS of investigation, the US attorney has someone arrested and still needs to file for a 90 day extension in order for a formal indictment to be made.

how much sense does it make to idly sit by and watch/investigate someone "defraud the citizens of Illinois of their right to honest services" for 6 whole years? jinkies!   :wank:

I think for it to be a problem you'd have to agree with me that it was a good idea so as long as you remain my conscience we'll be ok sugar.  :grin:


good point.  :vc:
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Am i missing something here or do things just work differently over there? In the first post it states that the guy had been charged with these offences, what's the difference?


http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/12/blagojevich_ind.html
Quote
In the latest wrinkle in the Rod Blagojevich political soap opera, the chief federal prosecutor asked today for more time to indict the Illinois governor.

US Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald filed a motion seeking a 90-day extension, saying "multiple witnesses" have come forward in recent weeks and investigators have to review "thousands of intercepted phone calls," the Associated Press reports.

Federal prosecutors usually have 30 days to file an indictment against a defendant. That deadline would have been Jan. 7, and the extension would give Fitzgerald, who in announcing Blagojevich's arrest accused him of a political corruption "crime spree," until April 7. A spokesman for Fitzgerald told the AP a federal judge is scheduled to review the motion at a Monday hearing.

That delay means that Blagojevich could be impeached by the Illinois legislature before he is formally indicted, and could put more pressure on the US Senate to seat the replacement Blagojevich picked Tuesday to fill the seat vacated by President-elect Barack Obama.


Seems to me we have a clusterfuck.
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Seems to me we have a clusterfuck.

thats a bit of an understatement, no?  :lol:
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Its called intent insome cases.

In the U.S., theyre actually called inchoate crimes and there are three classes of them - attempt, solicitation and conspiracy.

So dani, if someone wealthy who lives near you and somehow stands to personally gain from your property if you didn't own it, surreptitiously talks about and offers a sum of money to an underground network of mobsters to have you killed and the FBI records it, should he be arrested? Should you and the public be alerted to it? Or should they have to wait for someone to show up with a gun at your door step or maybe even pull the trigger and hopefully miss?

Assume that the wealthy person already went as far as to have meeting with a certain "JJ Jr." who is a known, qualified hitman and possibly several others interested in doing the job.

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Fipronila

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Now make the wealthy guy someone your tax dollars pays for. Makes it a little different imo.
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So dani, if someone wealthy who lives near you and somehow stands to personally gain from your property if you didn't own it, surreptitiously talks about and offers a sum of money to an underground network of mobsters to have you killed and the FBI records it, should he be arrested? Should you and the public be alerted to it? Or should they have to wait for someone to show up with a gun at your door step or maybe even pull the trigger and hopefully miss?

Assume that the wealthy person already went as far as to have meeting with a certain "JJ Jr." who is a known, qualified hitman and possibly several others interested in doing the job.

hmmm, if someone was trying to KILL me, it would be of huge concern. but who was he conspiring to kill? all ive heard so far is him smack talking and now there has been an extension filed for an additional 90 days for the indictment. 

how come he was allowed to conspire and behave corruptly for 6 whole years and action was only taken when it came down to appointing someone to the senate??

none of it makes sense to me.

it would seem that i could post 600 ways to eliminate the president over a two year period and even do so while in some sort of public office and it's okay for me to do it up until it becomes my duty to appoint someone to a senate seat, then even before i was officially indicted or found guilty of a crime, i'm suddenly stripped of some of my privileges that would be beneficial in keeping my state safe?? thats just ass backwards!  :vc:
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hmmm, if someone was trying to KILL me, it would be of huge concern. but who was he conspiring to kill? all ive heard so far is him smack talking and now there has been an extension filed for an additional 90 days for the indictment. 

how come he was allowed to conspire and behave corruptly for 6 whole years and action was only taken when it came down to appointing someone to the senate??

none of it makes sense to me.

it would seem that i could post 600 ways to eliminate the president over a two year period and even do so while in some sort of public office and it's okay for me to do it up until it becomes my duty to appoint someone to a senate seat, then even before i was officially indicted or found guilty of a crime, i'm suddenly stripped of some of my privileges that would be beneficial in keeping my state safe?? thats just ass backwards!  :vc:

The red part is the only thing responsive to my questions. Whether the guy is trying to kill someone or not doesnt matter for this example; in both the hypo and real life they were taking steps towards the commission of a crime.

Try it again and stick to the my hypo; i'll even change it around so that you dont get side tracked by irrelevancies - if a public official, say a judge who you going to appear before for running a red light that some asshole cop gave you a ticket for, secretly meets with several police offers and offers to find everyone they ticket and arrest for a crime guilty for a sum of money, should the FBI arrest him on the spot or should they wait til they have evidence of several innocent people being wrongfully convicted such as several appellate court reversals?

Is it not enough to at least get rid of the judge if not put him in jail for the simple act of soliciting money to carry out his public function in a certain way which is especially beneficial to the person paying him? Bonus points if you go back and answer my original hypothetical more fully.

Now make the wealthy guy someone your tax dollars pays for. Makes it a little different imo.

Another separate but excellent point. The very nature of the charges and the evidence against him makes him an ineffectual public official. His responsibility is to serve the best interests of the people of the State of Illinois and under the cloud that he's under, it is impossible for him to do so.

He has become a fucking joke. Whether the evidence against him amounts to a crime or not, EVERYONE in politics is saying he should resign. His chief of staff already quit. No one is going to take this guy seriously. The guy who he named to the Senate last week will not be allowed to be seated according to the congressional leaders. Anyone who would be seated would be looked under a cloud of suspicion themselves.

Knowing all this, anyone who has takes their public duty seriously would resign. He cannot function effectively and govern due to the public perception. Only some scum bucket dickwad who puts his own personal interests and political survival ahead of everything else he's been entrusted to do would stay on the job and not resign, Marion Barry style.

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Johnny Storm

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Bra1n misunderstood.  I didn't say I wanted to kill Dani....I said I wanted to kill her punanny.  :rotf:
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You hate us because you ain't us, son!

princess of ptTopic starter

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The red part is the only thing responsive to my questions. Whether the guy is trying to kill someone or not doesnt matter for this example; in both the hypo and real life they were taking steps towards the commission of a crime.

in my initial perspective, i already cited that i felt that he should not be allowed to govern as a result of his corrupt behaviors....i.e. criminal actions.

By no means do I think this man should be governor of his state, but I find trying him in the public and revoking his privileges pertaining to sensitive information that is certainly applicable to him performing his job, is almost equally corrupt as his own behavior.


i do empathize with exactly what youre trying to say. my problem now is the way this has unfolded and the duration of the investigation surrounding his obvious proclivity for shady, self serving dealings.

say obama had not won and there wasnt a seat to fill, what then? this a crooked fuck who was elected in 02 and again in 06! if he was suspect of corruption and dishonesty as early as 03, why was he allowed to pursue another gubernatorial run and remain in office??

what i'm trying to say is if his actions were handled and dealt with expeditiously early on, there wouldnt have been a margin left open for him to solicit bribes and this wouldnt be perceived as such a clusterfuck.
 
Try it again and stick to the my hypo; i'll even change it around so that you dont get side tracked by irrelevancies - if a public official, say a judge who youre going to appear before for running a red light that some asshole cop gave you a ticket for, secretly meets with several police officers and offers to find everyone they ticket and arrest for a crime guilty for a sum of money, should the FBI arrest him on the spot or should they wait til they have evidence of several innocent people being wrongfully convicted such as several appellate court reversals?

thats a little less extreme than plotting to kill someone  :lol: i think killing someone is a very serious offense, especially over a senate seat! holy mackerel!

and yes, to validate your point, exposing someones errant ways and alleged corruption, especially when they are a public figure is imperative. but he has not been prosecuted yet and we've only been given minimal one sided insights as to exactly what they have on the fuck. is that on par with our judicial system? guilty until proved innocent? is it acceptable to pick and choose the little bits of information that are going to be made public?

youre not answering my questions. they began investigating the crazy haired toon in april of 2003! now theyre trying to put off the formal indictment until april of 2009! if he is such a brazenly callous fool, why would they let him continue on as an executive to the state for so long?

i understand they needed to give him enough rope to hang himself. however, his arrest would lead one to believe he had been given adequate rope to do the job 6x over.

now an extension that goes 60 days beyond the norm has been requested, like a dolt he remains in office and is being denied obligatory classified information necessary to procure the safety of his state as a punishment, he thumbed his nose at the system and made the senate appointment anyway, and his entire reign is marked by 6 years of inexplicable investigatory feet dragging that didnt seem pertinent until it was time to fill a chair. the whole sordid tale just reeks on every level of the spectrum.
   
Is it not enough to at least get rid of the judge if not put him in jail for the simple act of soliciting money to carry out his public function in a certain way which is especially beneficial to the person paying him? Bonus points if you go back and answer my original hypothetical more fully.

wait a minute! i get bonus points!?  :lmao: what do i get to exchange them for? anything slippery?  :diddle:

Knowing all this, anyone who has takes their public duty seriously would resign. He cannot function effectively and govern due to the public perception.

thats sounds quite applicable to our lame duck president and his vp. yet the fbi hasnt decided to make an example out of them and their level of decision making isnt limited to freshman senate seats and instead of taking money for appointments, they just fleeced the little guy and the next couple of generations out of googuls of money.  :sad:
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princess of ptTopic starter

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Bra1n misunderstood.  I didn't say I wanted to kill Dani....I said I wanted to kill her punanny.  :rotf:

dont know how i missed this one, but you leave my penny out of this you bastard. she doesnt even pay taxes!
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