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Author Topic: Re: Minus 12 (Global Warming debate)  (Read 4285 times)

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Re: Minus 12 (Global Warming debate)
« on: January 07, 2009, 07:31:41 PM »

so much for global warming, eh?  :lol:
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 01:00:38 PM »

so much for global warming, eh?  :lol:


Global warming means average temp globally, not some day in particular regionally. It is a fact that since the industrial revolution of the early 1900's, the average temperatures have been steadily rising like never before in modern history.





Things like that dont just happen by themselves; they happen for a reason. Something is causing the temperatures to rise. You can put 1 plus 1 together or you can ignore the observable facts and ridicule it like so many do.

I wish some of that cold weather would make it down here. It was damn near 80F yesterday.
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 08:41:55 PM »

Global warming means average temp globally, not some day in particular regionally. It is a fact that since the industrial revolution of the early 1900's, the average temperatures have been steadily rising like never before in modern history.





Things like that dont just happen by themselves; they happen for a reason. Something is causing the temperatures to rise. You can put 1 plus 1 together or you can ignore the observable facts and ridicule it like so many do.

I wish some of that cold weather would make it down here. It was damn near 80F yesterday.


you can have it!! i'm done with it! my toes are like ice cubes as i type this and i'm even wearing my fluffy pink slippers!
 
mmk, I'll bite. We've gone the rounds with this before privately and I'll gladly go the rounds again with you now; If only because I find you even more yummay than usual when you choose to over emphasize my flippant remarks and challenge me.
 
Considering I'm aware of your knowledge and understanding surrounding the evolution of our planet and the duration of time it took for us to get to this current, yet technologically puerile stage of man kind, I'm a still a little shocked that youre so narrow minded when it comes to this discussion. But anyway....
 
For starters, I will point out that based on your above remarks, your beliefs apparently stem from data collected over the past century during the industrial revolution with instruments that were more than likely just as antiquated as the rest of the machinery from the industrial revolution and definitely not as sophisticated as the equipment used present day to measure the temperatures and gases of our atmosphere.
 
Those modes of observation, coupled with the age of this planet indicate to me that "Global Warming" conjecture is solely hypothetical and only based on a minute fraction of the information needed to come to such a drastic conclusion at best and it is quite possibly nothing more than manufactured propaganda with an underlying political agenda, but I'll stay away from the silly conspiracy theory bits for now and just stick with the basic reasoning, hehehe!
 
Really, lets think about it in this context. When Christopher Columbus licked his index finger and held it up to the wind and jotted down the temperature and approximately how many knots he was traveling at, was that an accurate basis for determining how warm or cold that part of the planet was and exactly how fast he was traveling across the ocean, back during the early modern period? How effective was his methodology as compared to ours. How long from then up until now, did it take for us to get to a point where we could devise what we think is an absolute guaranteed means at measuring the temperature of our planet and it's habitats collectively? How long has man inhabited earth and what is his position on the cosmic calendar?
 
Better yet, considering our planet is 70% water, what means were there to accurately measure the temperature of the earth during the early modern era or even more recent than that, the start of the contemporary period? Historical documents show that temperatures were recorded once a day and taken closest to the earths surface or "micro climate", for decades and there was no accounting for cloud cover or brief periods of inclement weather.

Even after more modern equipment was invented, when temperatures were recorded more than once a day, only the extremes were noted. Just the "Hi's an the Low's, if you will.

Recording the temperature at regular intervals, using somewhat reliable and accurate methods to do so, began in the early 60's, via NASA satellite. Polar orbiting satellites specifically designed to measure weather and temperature were not even in use until about 1979.

Before that, each ground source that had collected data had utilized it's own method for collection and intrinsic factors like man made environments and land use effects that can directly effect temperatures (more industry, more activity, more modernization, more people, more heat) had not been taken into consideration up until recent decades.
 
Therefore, arguing that extrapolated averages, of which have been derived inconsistently and with uncontrolled methods of collection up until the last three decades, would hardly seem like an effective or an absolute method to establish any sort of definitive trend such as something as great as "Global Warming".

My understanding of a trend is that it needs a marked beginning and an end to measure it by, not just a random start plucked out of convenience of available and rudimentary measuring equipment and means.

Just mathematically computing inconsistently collected data from only the past hundred years or so and drawing such a vast conclusion when we are somewhat aware of the actual age of our planet, would seem quite presumptuous and naive, no?
 
I'm not doubting that there is some sort of "climate change" going on with the globe, however large or small that the case may be. I'm stating that we as a species have a greatly limited and vastly theoretical knowledge base of the universe. The methods utilized in determining the amount, the extent, and the cause of climate change are inaccurate and up until recently it wasnt possible to measure the planets temperature with the appropriate technological means. Arriving at such a conclusion with such a limited collection of data is absurd.

Our planets temperature has fluctuated to the extremes for 4.5 BILLION years, with or without the existence of humans and will continue to do so once we've mastered self extinction. It is beyond our control.
 
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2009, 06:23:33 PM »

So.........................

Global warming? Man made problem or natural phenomena

and is this another subject and another thread?
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2009, 06:49:32 PM »

So.........................

Global warming? Man made problem or natural phenomena

and is this another subject and another thread?

I think it's a combination, personally.

Another thread I dunno about.
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2009, 09:31:25 PM »

I think it's a combination, personally.

Another thread I dunno about.

Personally I think Global warming is a crock of shit and the greatest scam since Y2K
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 05:30:52 PM »


 
For starters, I will point out that based on your above remarks, your beliefs apparently stem from data collected over the past century during the industrial revolution with instruments that were more than likely just as antiquated as the rest of the machinery from the industrial revolution and definitely not as sophisticated as the equipment used present day to measure the temperatures and gases of our atmosphere.
 



Skip to 5:00 and watch the next parts








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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2009, 11:29:30 PM »

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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2009, 01:46:56 AM »

wtf is this crap?? YT responses now?? my word, how twapenesque of you!!  :vc:

i see your lazy assed barrage of yt's and raise you with a more recent lou dobbs clip that benefits my logic!  :lol:



for some reason i'm not seeing the yt's with firefox even after updating, grrrr. anyway...

firstly, you have a politician running amok citing that the sky is falling, lol! nothing new about that. especially if you havent been in a coma for the past 8 years.

i dont see how using footage of a bunch of padded pocketed politicians who claimed smoking was safe is pertinent. it's just about the most comedic thing ive ever seen and is totally irrelevant to the topic.

we already know politicians are crooked and will say anything for a buck. it negates the gore argument by using a lying group of politicians as an example of how easily mislead the public is. that was swift. i guess dateline had to dupe/alarm the masses with some sort of angle.

anyway...lets try to simplify this some more.
 
-many scientists have made hypothesis based on one hundred years of data and concluded that our planet is going to meltdown eventually.

-scientists believe theyve been able to conclusively assess ice content to determine climate changes over five thousand years (sorry i think thats fucking hysterical)

-based on the limited and inconsistent data that has been gathered and coupling it with findings from "ice samples" they studied from over five thousand years ago, theyve somehow determined there has been an alarming change in temperature.

has there been a sufficient collection of data to come to such a precise conclusion? i think not.

the earth, the planet we inhabit, is FOUR AND A HALF BILLION YEARS OLD. step outside of the box and looked at it this way for the sake of argument;

compare a 45 year old human being to a 4.5 billion year old planet. if you wanted to accurately measure the humans temperature to gage what his median average was and essentially determine what his bodies routine behavior is in order to adequately figure what deems him healthy or not, you're certainly not going to observe him for just one single day. you would place him in a controlled atmosphere and take multiple readings and make observations over a long stretch of time until youve developed a systemic pattern that you can rely on to come to a reasonable conclusion.

when using the earth as a whole to determine what is "business as usual", you would need to measure way more information than just five thousand year old ice found on one part of the planet in order to establish any sort of trend in temperature change.

even the millions of years men have roamed the planet is not enough time to accumulate observation enough to say there is a legitimate change that is outside of the normal behavior of the earths cycle.
 
in conjunction with my above example and comparing a humans lifespan to that of the planets, the humans temperature would have been measured in less than a picosecond in order to draw such an outrageous conclusion with such limited information.

it is all mere speculation and is irresponsible. i'm simply questioning the methods and motivations in which such a conclusion has come to pass.

i have not disputed that there seems to be a change in our climate. is it a change that is detrimental to the planet as we've been told? or is it just detrimental to us and our existence, so therefore we've been alarmed into changing our behaviors to benefit some sort of political agenda?
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2009, 03:57:27 PM »

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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2009, 08:12:25 PM »

even the millions of years men have roamed the planet is not enough time to accumulate observation enough to say there is a legitimate change that is outside of the normal behavior of the earths cycle.

Uh, thousands.  Anyhoos, I don't think they are taking into account the full significance of the cycles and mini-cycles of the ice ages.  I believe the last mini-ice age just ended about the time the Industrial Revolution started.  It's beginning coincided with the Dark Ages.  So, with just that knowledge I'd bet we still have at least three centuries of steady warming by natural cycles.  That's not to say C02 doesn't play a part. 

Then on top of the mini-cycle we are still progressing out of an Ice Age.  Unless some massive volcanoes erupt, I'd say we can expect it to heat up for a good long while.
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2009, 08:54:15 PM »

Uh, thousands. 
doh! thats what i meant, but you knew that. :blush:

Anyhoos, I don't think they are taking into account the full significance of the cycles and mini-cycles of the ice ages.  I believe the last mini-ice age just ended about the time the Industrial Revolution started.  It's beginning coincided with the Dark Ages.  So, with just that knowledge I'd bet we still have at least three centuries of steady warming by natural cycles.  That's not to say C02 doesn't play a part. 

Then on top of the mini-cycle we are still progressing out of an Ice Age.  Unless some massive volcanoes erupt, I'd say we can expect it to heat up for a good long while.

yeah. i dont believe it will effect us as significantly as they would like to terrorize us into believing. not for a very, very long time.

as far as carbon dioxide goes, look at mars. its atmosphere is heavy with CO2 and they recently were able to identify through spectroscopy very dense clouds that are made up of huge CO2 particles, clouds large and thick enough to block the sun and keep mars climate quite chilly.

additionally, CO2 levels during the jurassic period were 5 times higher than they are presently. unless fred flintstone or his dinosaur counterpart drove a diesel, i highly doubt that emissions is as huge a factor as we are lead to believe.
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2009, 10:28:36 PM »

The whole thing is huge business. Governments are making billions out of this in carbon taxes etc.

I always laugh when people say that great scientists have proven Global warming is true. Reality is that they were paid to do so, someone gives them thousands of dollars and says prove my theory and they do. then another party comes along to another "expert" and says disprove that and they do.

fact is when you are paid to do a job that's what you do, otherwise the gravy train stops.
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2009, 10:49:32 PM »

exactly.

at the risk of exposing too much of your pi, i will post that YT you made explaining your condensed scientific theory that debunks al gores propaganda.  :lol:

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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 02:34:33 AM »

wtf is this crap?? YT responses now?? my word, how twapenesque of you!!  :vc:

i see your lazy assed barrage of yt's and raise you with a more recent lou dobbs clip that benefits my logic!  :lol:



You know what the worse thing about the global warming debate is? It's that the loudest mouthpiece for awareness associated with it happens to be a former politician who ran for the Presidency in the US. Thus, his message of awareness and the dangers of it becomes politicized by those on the other side of his political views and obscured by people like Lou Dobbs who don't know the difference between a cold front and global weather. Measurable and provable scientific facts becomes a liberal hoax by people who like to listen to themselves talk on the airwaves and bash Al Gore for sport.

What i posted wasnt a "lazy barrage of youtubes", it was a definitive response and answer to the type of nonsense that you posted and you would have been well served to have watched it and what some of the world's most famous scientist have to say instead of continuing your campaign of ignorance. Nothing more than what is contained in those 20 mins or so of videos really needs to be said or can be said about this "debate".

In short, there is no debate about climate change and global warming. It is an undisputed fact that over the post 100 years, the average temperatures of the world have gotten warmer.

It is an indisputable scientific fact that carbon dioxide causes a greenhouse effect that prevents light energy from escaping the atmosphere and turns it into heat.

There is no disputing that over the past 100 years, we have dumped trillions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere from industry; man made gases that wouldnt otherwise exist on Earth. During that time, there has also been considerable deforestation which of course, tends to decrease the amount of co2 that is converted into oxygen.

There is no question that throughout history as CO2 levels have risen on the Earth, so have the global temperatures. There is a direct correlation between the two. All you have to do is look at Venus to put the exclamation point on the effects of CO2 on global temperatures.

Now, you can turn a blind eye like a fool and say that there is no causal connection with what i just wrote above but you cannot refute that those are the facts. There is no scientific debate about it. You can even check the government EPA website and see that they cite NASA and NOAA for authority that the average temperatures have risen dramatically in a relatively short period of time.

http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/basicinfo.html

The videos have scientist like Steven Hawking, Michio Kaku from CUNY, Michael Oppenheimer from Princeton and Neil deGrasse Tyson all warning about the very real dangers of global warming. Yet people like you can't get past Al Gore as the messenger and think that Lou Dobbs talking about it snowing in Vegas is a more credible scientific authority. LMAO, you hang onto Lou Dobbs and have him stand in your corner and I think I'll stick with the Steven Hawking's group and every other reputable group of scientist who are deeply concerned about global warming.

There is one question that you and others who think like you should be asking yourself, though. What if you are wrong?

What if in another 30 years the average temperature goes up another 2 degrees and we have start having category 8 hurricanes, crop failures, food shortages, floods and a shtload of other things that the scientist are warning about today? By then it will be too late to do much of anything.

Are you going to say to your kids, shit we should have listened to those scientist 30 years ago and done something about it back then and we wouldnt have to pay 40 bucks for an ear of corn right now? Or are you still going to be in denial while most of CT sits under water and you live in a houseboat?

What if we do something about it starting now but all the scientist turn out to be wrong? What would the effects be in 30 years? Our atmosphere would have less CO2? We have more trees then we would otherwise? The air we breath would be cleaner? Our cars would get better mileage? We may even have developed alternate forms of energy and gotten away from fossil fuels?

Would these things be as bad as things would be if YOUR side is wrong about man causing global warming?

You fuckin' nut.  :hammer:
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Re: Minus 12
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 09:17:18 AM »

Can someone telll me when Global Warming will hit NY? Because I swear, I almost froze my tits off in the car this morning on my way to the office. It's not warming up AT ALL.
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Re: Minus 12 (Global Warming debate)
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 02:57:48 PM »

Nice. As if we needed to see more evidence of the global warming trends. It's all around us if you just open your eyes and put 2 plus 2 together.

Quote
Ice shelf hangs by a thread
(02:30) Report

Jan 21 - An Antarctic ice shelf is on the brink of collapse with just a sliver of ice holding it in place, the latest victim of global warming that is altering maps of the frozen continent.

David Vaughan, a glaciologist at the British Antarctic Survey, told Reuters after the first -- and probably last -- plane landing near the narrowest strip of ice that the feature is 'in its death throes.'

<a href="http://static.reuters.com/resources/flash/include_video.swf?edition=US&amp;videoId=97373" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://static.reuters.com/resources/flash/include_video.swf?edition=US&amp;videoId=97373</a>


Quote
Antarctica Getting Warmer After All
Thursday, January 22, 2009
By Andrea Thompson

 The frozen desert interior of Antarctica was thought to be the lone holdout resisting the man-made warming affecting the rest of the globe, with some areas even showing signs of cooling.

Some global-warming contrarians liked to point to inner Antarctica as a counter-example. But climate researchers have now turned this notion on its head, with the first study to show that the entire continent is warming, and has been for the past 50 years.

"Antarctica is warming, and it's warming at the same rate as the rest of the planet," said study co-author Michael Mann of Penn State University.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,481227,00.html
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Re: Re: Minus 12 (Global Warming debate)
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 03:13:42 PM »

Quote from: Bra1n
Nice. As if we needed to see more evidence of the global warming trends. It's all around us if you just open your eyes and put 2 plus 2 together.

Brai1n, there's no doubt that there is a global warming going on, the real question is it man made, a natural cycle, or is it a natural cycle accelerated by man?

This is where the debate truly lies.
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Re: Re: Minus 12 (Global Warming debate)
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 03:37:14 PM »

Brai1n, there's no doubt that there is a global warming going on, the real question is it man made, a natural cycle, or is it a natural cycle accelerated by man?

This is where the debate truly lies.

The few nitwits out there in the media who are "contrarians" to the global warming science argue that the Earth is getting colder, not warmer. Much like Dani did with her first post here.

However, assuming for a moment they can accept the overwhelming volume of scientific data that shows the planet has been warming over the past 100 years, and Antarctica has also been warming at the same rate, then you just have to follow a simple syllogism.

-Carbon dioxide in the atmosphere prevents the heat from sunlight from escaping into space.

-There has been a direct correlation throughout history and still is between the amount of co2 in the atmosphere and the average temperatures on Earth.

-The more co2 in the atmosphere, the higher the average temperatures.

-Human beings have released trillions of tons of co2 into the atmosphere over the last 100 years since the start of the industrial revolution.

-Thus, human beings are at least partly responsible for causing global warming.

Can you or anyone else refute any of those statements?
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Re: Re: Minus 12 (Global Warming debate)
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2009, 03:46:01 PM »

Absolutely not, but to say we are the sole cause of global warming is where I tend to take issue (not that you have said that). But there are a shitload of folks out there that truly believe this is entirely a man made issue, and there simply isnt enough evidence to support that. My reasoning behind that is that the ice age ended, and the planet started to warm about 20,000 years ago, quite a long time before human kind had any environmental impact on our planet.

I believe it was pt who correctly stated that we havent been around on this planet long enough to truly establish a pattern of any sort.
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